How has your association with ZCF helped you?

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zimbos_05
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Re: How has your association with ZCF helped you?

Post by zimbos_05 » Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:54 am

Kriterion_BD wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:07 pm

Certainly agree here. Explanation is not always = justification.

But you have to consider phrase-ology to avoid confusion or ambiguity. Using the words "so and so has a point" suggests justification and validation of a set of beliefs. A more precise phrase would be "so and so says" or "so and so believes".

For example, saying "Hitler had a point when he talked about how the Jews had too much power in Germany/Europe" is suggesting a validation of that anti-semitic belief. A matter-of-fact way to state that is, "Hitler had a grievance that Jews wielded too much power". That neither distorts facts, nor does it validate or invalidate Nazi views.
Not really. Your latter phrasing suggests that you are just making a statement of how someone feels as opposed to the point they are making. A point can be valid, but it can be wrongly addressed. The latter would suggest that you don't actually understand, but are playing off the message as nonsense, regardless of how rational it may sound.

hhm can say that he feels "more black players deserve a chance" and I can say, "that is a valid point". He can then say, "in order to to do this, we must stop white players from playing the game, and remove all white people from any position of power". I can then disagree with this because his manner of addressing his point is incorrect. So, i can understand his initial point, I just don't necessarily agree with him in general nor would support him.

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Re: How has your association with ZCF helped you?

Post by Kriterion_BD » Sat Nov 09, 2019 7:48 am

zimbos_05 wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:54 am


Not really. Your latter phrasing suggests that you are just making a statement of how someone feels as opposed to the point they are making. A point can be valid, but it can be wrongly addressed. The latter would suggest that you don't actually understand, but are playing off the message as nonsense, regardless of how rational it may sound.
None of this makes any sense. "A point can be valid but wrongly addressed." What does that mean? Did you mean to say "A point can be valid, but wrongly stated?"
hhm can say that he feels "more black players deserve a chance" and I can say, "that is a valid point". He can then say, "in order to to do this, we must stop white players from playing the game, and remove all white people from any position of power". I can then disagree with this because his manner of addressing his point is incorrect. So, i can understand his initial point, I just don't necessarily agree with him in general nor would support him.
The HHM analogy is off the mark completely.

This is because you compared Zimdoggy's blatantly homophobic comment "LGBTQ rights promote pedophilia" with HHM's entirely plausible one of "black players deserve more chances". Let me say this again, the first comment is bigoted. The second comment is one that is reasonable. You cannot compare an apple to an orange.

A second reason why your comparison falls off the mark is in the type of comments you are comparing. Zimdoggy's comment is either true or false. It can be proven or disproven with data. HHM's comment is neither true nor false, its an opinion. It cannot be proven or disproven with data.
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Re: How has your association with ZCF helped you?

Post by ZIMDOGGY » Sat Nov 09, 2019 9:11 am

Kriterion_BD wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 7:48 am
zimbos_05 wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:54 am


Not really. Your latter phrasing suggests that you are just making a statement of how someone feels as opposed to the point they are making. A point can be valid, but it can be wrongly addressed. The latter would suggest that you don't actually understand, but are playing off the message as nonsense, regardless of how rational it may sound.
None of this makes any sense. "A point can be valid but wrongly addressed." What does that mean? Did you mean to say "A point can be valid, but wrongly stated?"
hhm can say that he feels "more black players deserve a chance" and I can say, "that is a valid point". He can then say, "in order to to do this, we must stop white players from playing the game, and remove all white people from any position of power". I can then disagree with this because his manner of addressing his point is incorrect. So, i can understand his initial point, I just don't necessarily agree with him in general nor would support him.
The HHM analogy is off the mark completely.

This is because you compared Zimdoggy's blatantly homophobic comment "LGBTQ rights promote pedophilia" with HHM's entirely plausible one of "black players deserve more chances". Let me say this again, the first comment is bigoted. The second comment is one that is reasonable. You cannot compare an apple to an orange.

A second reason why your comparison falls off the mark is in the type of comments you are comparing. Zimdoggy's comment is either true or false. It can be proven or disproven with data. HHM's comment is neither true nor false, its an opinion. It cannot be proven or disproven with data.
So if it can be proven with data, I’ve won this argument because I showed actual examples?
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zimbos_05
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Re: How has your association with ZCF helped you?

Post by zimbos_05 » Sat Nov 09, 2019 8:09 pm

Kriterion_BD wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 7:48 am


None of this makes any sense. "A point can be valid but wrongly addressed." What does that mean? Did you mean to say "A point can be valid, but wrongly stated?"
Addressed is another work for action.
The HHM analogy is off the mark completely.

This is because you compared Zimdoggy's blatantly homophobic comment "LGBTQ rights promote pedophilia" with HHM's entirely plausible one of "black players deserve more chances". Let me say this again, the first comment is bigoted. The second comment is one that is reasonable. You cannot compare an apple to an orange.

A second reason why your comparison falls off the mark is in the type of comments you are comparing. Zimdoggy's comment is either true or false. It can be proven or disproven with data. HHM's comment is neither true nor false, its an opinion. It cannot be proven or disproven with data.
No, because I did not justify his comment about pedophilia. I justified his initial comment about it being a means that can lead to something else, I never specified the something else.

Also, HHMs comment could be proven by data. You would look at participating figures. Schools involved. Coach numbers. Grassroots levels.

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Re: How has your association with ZCF helped you?

Post by Kriterion_BD » Sun Nov 10, 2019 8:00 pm

zimbos_05 wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 8:09 pm


No, because I did not justify his comment about pedophilia. I justified his initial comment about it being a means that can lead to something else, I never specified the something else.
So are we now going to justify Hitler's initial grievance that Germany was hard done by world powers after WWI? Surely, you can see the slippery slope?
Also, HHMs comment could be proven by data. You would look at participating figures. Schools involved. Coach numbers. Grassroots levels.
You can't prove an opinion. "Black players need more chances" cannot be proven because its merely an opinion. More chances than what?

Gay rights lead to pedophilia can be proven to be false because Gays are no more or less likely than straights to be pedophiles, nor are most pedophiles gay.
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Re: How has your association with ZCF helped you?

Post by Kriterion_BD » Sun Nov 10, 2019 8:06 pm

ZIMDOGGY wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 9:11 am


So if it can be proven with data, I’ve won this argument because I showed actual examples?
*cue Rocky Music*

No because there are 1000s of examples of the Church that you've ignored.
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Re: How has your association with ZCF helped you?

Post by eugene » Sun Nov 10, 2019 11:09 pm

This thread has convinced me that we should just have one catch-all thread for the entire forum.
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Re: How has your association with ZCF helped you?

Post by zimbos_05 » Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:27 am

Kriterion_BD wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 8:00 pm

So are we now going to justify Hitler's initial grievance that Germany was hard done by world powers after WWI? Surely, you can see the slippery slope?
Wow, talk about making 1+1 = 14. Your problem is that you are assuming that because one can understand someone, they agree with them and what the same thing. Doggy was merely saying that everything has a next progression. The reaction was basically what you are doing, jumping from A to F, and not understanding his point.
You can't prove an opinion. "Black players need more chances" cannot be proven because its merely an opinion. More chances than what?

Gay rights lead to pedophilia can be proven to be false because Gays are no more or less likely than straights to be pedophiles, nor are most pedophiles gay.
You can prove or disprove an opinion. You've just done that with the pedophilia thing. If not then we might as well do away with science.

Everything is an opinion and that opinion is not confirmed until proven true or false. If someone says "Black players need more chances" as an opinion, they have to prove it. Like I said in my last post they would do so by looking at the facts and figures.



Do you just read what you want to read?

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Re: How has your association with ZCF helped you?

Post by Jemisi » Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:45 am

eugene wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 11:09 pm
This thread has convinced me that we should just have one catch-all thread for the entire forum.
:lol:

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Re: How has your association with ZCF helped you?

Post by cricket_22001 » Mon Nov 11, 2019 8:49 am

No question the ZCF has helped me by being a great leveller to me.
Here I am, whinging & moaning about the state of affairs in Australia, then I read Googly's & other Zimbabwean forumites' posts about the state of affairs in Zimbabwe.
I have a job, my kids have jobs & you can pretty much guarantee milk & bread will be available tomorrow. We whinge when cricinfo doesn't update scores quick enough or Foxtel's satellite can't broadcast the cricket.
I don't think I have a right to complain about much.
I certainly refer to this forum when I hear someone bellyaching about whatever & try to introduce them to someone else's reality. There's a few Australian tennis players & NRL players who should take a pilgrimage your way to realise how fortunate they are.
Also, being introduced to people like Hhm & Watermelon makes me feel happy to be me.
Finally, one of the great threads was the forum members meeting at a pub & having a drink. I'll cherish that one. My shout first!

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