Our Test Bowling Attack

[jimbo]

I would go as far as to say that maybe Maruma is a dark horse for the number 7 spot against new zealand in january especially after a nice hundred midweek, plus he used to take hatfulls of wickets for fun

[Boundary]

Injury free, the Test line up in a couple of years will be:

7. Meth
8. Cremer
9. Jarvis
10. Vitori
11. Mpofu

Mpofu holds one end, the rest attack the other. The tail is long enough: Meth and Cremer can bat, Jarvis and Vitori can hang around. But in order to get to this line up, we should not put all the novices in at once, and a mixture of experienced place holders and older but inferior hands should be blended in.

I don't think we can afford not to have someone who can hold a bat in the bottom 4 so ...

8.Meth/Chigs
9. Price [EDIT:/Lamb/Cremer]
10. Vitori, Jarvis, Rainsford, Ncube, Chatara, Tiripano, Masakadza, Garwe or even Querl (this spot is experimental - if i have to commit: Jarvis)
11. Mpofu

I like this, put a batsman/wicketkeeper at 7 and bat deep then bowl with Price plus 3 seamers. We need Price's leadership over the next 2 years after which he can gracefully retire from test cricket. Together with Mpofu and Chiggs, there will be enough experience here to guide us on the 5th day, when nerves are fraying.

Regarding the ODIs I would like to see more experimenting, with the likes of Tiripano and Querl getting a look in. Mpofu has a good fielding arm but I'd drop him go all attack with 7. Chigs, 8. Cremer, 9. Jarvis, 10. Vitori, 11. Querl (or Rainsford/Tiripano/Shingi etc.)

[betterdays]

9. Price [EDIT:/Lamb/Cremer]

I like this, put a batsman/wicketkeeper at 7 and bat deep then bowl with Price plus 3 seamers. We need Price's leadership over the next 2 years after which he can gracefully retire from test cricket. Together with Mpofu and Chiggs, there will be enough experience here to guide us on the 5th day, when nerves are fraying.

yes, i think this would serve us well for, as you say, the next couple of years

I would add to Utseya to your 'EDIT' even if i would prefer Cremer, we just may occasionally have need of a Price replacement especially when our tours become longer (though i guess there's always Hammie to turn to for some control) and the opposition is cranking up big numbers.

i might tweak one other thing - I think if Mpofu were injured then:

8 Meth/Chigs
9 Price
10 any of those i mentioned won't upset me ... with Jarvis as 1st choice, and right now Vitori as 2nd (that'll be revisited though late Jan)
11. Mpofu/Rainsford

hhm has been going on about Rainsford and i've been softened up - so after reading that he's only 27 and has some fairly impressive stats behind him I'd give him that cover role for Mpofu above anyone else

[Jemisi]

Price, Mpofu, Jarvis pick themselves.

Then probably Meth/Vitori depending on the return from injury.

Challengers to those guys are Cremer, and I think Rainsford should be 5th in line seam-wise.

[hhm]

I think we have bowlers to allow us the variety, we can attack with Creamer, Vitori and Jarvis and ask Mpofu to focus on holding

7Meth,8Cremer,9Jarvis,10Vitori,11Mpofu...Mpofu holds one end, the rest attack the other

I think you guys severely overate our bowlers, or should I say the Zimbabwe National Cricket Team itself. How can you still seek to have both Jarvis and Vitori in the same Test XI? I thought the days of hearing such suggestions have long been left behind, at least for another two years! It gets even worse with Cremer in there. Not to mention being very expensive, Vitori was completely clueless and wicketless against a quality Pakistan, who showed him he was way way out of his depth, while Jarvis despite getting the odd wicket and bowling the odd ball which troubles quality batsmen, otherwise, sure boundaries were either crashing against a fielder or crashing against the advertising board most of the time. Your premier fast bowler is supposed to give the team a first innings advantage EVERYTIME, but that's never been the case with him. By the time he wakes up the damage has already been done and the opposition has posted a big enough total to win by an innings. Top sides will hardly ever need to bat wice against us!

I say time and again that these youngsters are very raw, and we can all see it with our very eyes when opposition batsmen give them the treatment over after over, but somehow you are in denial. It's almost as if you are oblivious to the serious embarassment that can come to a team if your opening bowlers are both wicketless, and very expensive in the first innings. This is Test cricekt, not child's play. Having both of them in the same attack is suicidal. Granted, both have shown that they can strike and will only get better with experience, even though one did it against poor Bangladesh and the other against both Bangladesh and weakened NZ when they were looking to up the scoring rate(both batsmen had already consolidated through half centuries). So I'm prepared to have just one of them, not both - preferrably Jarvis. I only hope the coaches are wise enough to see this.

I know Mpofu also receives a spanking as well but on the whole he's been getting wickets and keeping things down if he's not. We can talk of dropped chances or bad calls but that's all part of cricke. Even Vusi and Hami have received bad calls which have jeopardised their innings as well, some are even talking of dropping Hami as a result, so it goes both ways.

I can understand if guys don't want Rainsford in there, or even Panayngara who I insist has done very well against quality batsmen in our competition - good average and strike rate at an excellent economy rate. At least provide a solution which takes into account that we're a minnow. For all their improvements, our batsmen cannot hold of brillaint attacks, but surely to send out an attack which will go at over 4+/over and take just 2 or 3 wickets in a 90over day

It seems Boundary has revised his position, but based on their preferences betterdays can see the folly of this, and despite our usual difference eugene to a lesser extent as well. He has a preference for Meth&Cremer over Elton&Price, but Meth can contain(as well as strike just like Mpofu). In most cases we'll on a hiding to nothing, so I just wonder if Cremer will be brought on when our seamers are good enough to have taken some wickets, or when the batsmen are well in and they've got massive runs on the board. In that case he will perform a 'Lamb vs Pak' type role, which, as in the past, can go horribly wrong. Cremer is simply too expensive for Test level right now, and he needs to work on many aspects of his bowling for two more seasons first of all(forget Mushangwe for another 5 years)! Price should be there for at least two more years!

Then probably Meth/Vitori depending on the return from injury.

In your response Jemisi, are you taking into account Elton as a bowler, or are you setting him aside as an allrounder.

[Boundary]

I have not changed my position, I still rate Vitori and Jarvis highly, especially as a pair. But I've always had injury concerns, both of them can't play a whole tour yet. And I have never changed my stance on Price either, he needs to be there coz he is the best ranked bowler we have for a reason and it would be foolish to just cast him aside. I have never been convinced by your arguments to cast aside the current selections in favour of yours (but I have no problems of them fighting their way in). Hhm you always find a way to explain why Jarvis and/or Vitori did well, why the team competed against NZ and Pak till the 4th and 5th day. Have you ever looked at Steyn's first few games?

[sscricket]

Well said hhm. I have to agree with most of the things mentioned in your post.

I think most of us agree that Mpofu, Price are mainstays for the moment. It is only the third and fourth slots that are contested by Jarvis, Vitori and NCube(whose celebratory antics I totally enjoy by the way) .

If you are good enough to play test cricket then you simply have to perform above average at domestic level. This has not happened with these guys. I dont see them taking 5 fers or 4 fers even against the weak FC batting sides or even contain for that matter.

Either way it looks like the selectors and ZC have taken a view that international cricket is a platform for experimentation and think somehow these players will do better at that level than at FC level. Players have to been penalized for non-performance just to send a message. The selection meeting seem to be heavily contested and in the end we are being made to watch a compromised side. I suspect this will happen on the next tour also unless someone is made accountable for their selections .

I do think Zimbabwe has enough bowling options to put together an attack better than Bangladesh and West Indies at the moment if they can solve the selection puzzle. On paper, I cant even think of them coming close to matching any other attack unless they find some matchwinners really quickly because Mpofu and Price dont fall into that category.

[sscricket]

Forgot to add, I do not consider Elton to be a bowler. He should be competing for one of the top 6 slots and I think he is good enough to bat at 3 or 4.

[FlowerPower]

I think you guys severely overate our bowlers, or should I say the Zimbabwe National Cricket Team itself.

Let's see ...being optimistic about a team that's been 6 years out, has less than a dozen Test caps for the team, beating Bangladesh (I know not such a big deal, but bear in mind we were their bunnies before we went away), taking Pakistan to the final day and in with real a shout of winning, and NZ to the last hour of day 5, losing both not due to indefeciaencies but lack of experience and belief which should come as they play more. Jarvis career best 6/162 v NZ (in only his 3rd Test match), Vitori 5/123 v Bangladesh (in only his 2ndd Test match), Mpofu 5/122 v NZ, all these personal bests achieved in the first 3 matches of returning, I'd say we are entitled to feel upbeat, if you on the otherhand want to feel pessimistic and see only doom and gloom, well..."half empty - half full"...its a choice isn't it? knock yourself out, I won't rain on your parade, likewise accept our optimism...surely a little optimism never hurt any one last I checked.

How can you still seek to have both Jarvis and Vitori in the same Test XI?

Goodness me, and I thought you were for constancy, these two have only had 2 matches together and what? Break them up? 12 wickets between the two, economy rates of 3.69 and 3.64....and we conclude they've dismally failed,... wow you'll do anything to have your way, at this rate I'm almost resigned to eugene's oneliners with no reason, at least he respects our intelligence and doesn't give stats that aren't entirely correct, yes despite pastings here and there but on the whole this pair has not gone for over 4 ... if you ask Dale Steyn he will list countless spells that went for over 4, but on the whole he is under 4...do you think Gary ought to drop him?

.... I thought the days of hearing such suggestions have long been left behind, at least for another two years! It gets even worse with Cremer in there.

Why? because hhm said so? Surely not...

Not to mention being very expensive, Vitori was completely clueless and wicketless against a quality Pakistan, who showed him he was way way out of his depth,

Did he have a tough outing vs Pakistan? No argument from me. But is he expensively useless? In my humble opinion...no. Steyn and Morkel vs Watson and Hughes went at over 5...I doubt you'd call them expensive, you need to be holistic in your analysis, picking a terrible section and ignoring/dismissing any other, decent parts, of the performance, will always conform to your argument, but a fair and objective assessment would give uis a complete picture...if he'd played and also went wicketless for runs vs NZ, I'd agree with you, but to dismiss him after 1 terrible game for me is unfair and incosistent (did I hear a faint moan at people wanting to drop Hami?)... ever here the saying "one swallow doesn't make a summer"? similarly one 5 wicket haul doesn't make Vitori a world class bowler, and surely one terrible match doesn't make his trash either, I give you my word hhm, if he fails next two matches I will petition the selectors to let the young man grow in FC, he is only 21 and there is no rush, but a leftarm genuine pace bowler and you want to toss him aside just like that? and for what a battery of medium pacers, imagine if you had your way, Elton, Mpofu and Rainsford, (and Panyangara in the wings) decent bowlers in my books but as an attack team not potent, for starters all similar pace, all right handers, all not world class. My argument therefore is I don't mind one of these Mpofu or Rainsford (for control) and the two kids attacking with gay abandon at the other end.

I don't think Panyangara, Rainsford, Ewing, Matsi are Sangakara or Dale Steyn, but if I'm to be fair I don't think they are useless, and hopefully all my arguments for their exclusion should never falsely try to paint them as useless as they aren't. That you don't want Vitori in the team is your opinion, one I will fight for you to say, if it came to, you are entitled to it, but is it necessary to distort truths to get it accross?

while Jarvis despite getting the odd wicket and bowling the odd ball which troubles quality batsmen, otherwise, sure boundaries were either crashing against a fielder or crashing against the advertising board most of the time. Your premier fast bowler is supposed to give the team a first innings advantage EVERYTIME, but that's never been the case with him. By the time he wakes up the damage has already been done and the opposition has posted a big enough total to win by an innings. Top sides will hardly ever need to bat wice against us!

Exaggeration takes away from your points, if this was EVERYTIME... such a team with such a bowler would hardley ever lose, if fact I challenge you to show me such a bowler with a first innings advantage EVERYTIME...

Look I sound like a stuck record, I rate you hhm and you will find this is not the first I say so, however you have this knack of trying to falsely discredit those you don't prefer...and you aren't alone in this respect...it takes away from you very sharp and eloquent arguments...

Accepted, your 4 man pace is: Mpofu Raisnford Panyangara and Price....accepted needless to say not agreed, and I will not slander any of these gentlemen, apart from pointing to stats that influence my preference of Jarvis Mpofu Vitori and Cremer...we don't agree life goes on

can understand if guys don't want Rainsford in there, or even Panayngara who I insist has done very well against quality batsmen in our competition - good average and strike rate at an excellent economy rate. At least provide a solution which takes into account that we're a minnow. For all their improvements, our batsmen cannot hold of brillaint attacks, but surely to send out an attack which will go at over 4+/over and take just 2 or 3 wickets in a 90over day

I rate Rainsford (see my original comment for proof), and so do quite a number of us, but don't expect EVERYONE to...that's life. And oh Panyangara Test economy of 3.2 hardly chalk and cheese from Jarvis and Vitori from all of 3 matches!! And we are the ones quick to take to the Vitoris who have hardly done anything....

Look there was a time I went with your argument of wise heads, until I discovered 22 year old Ncube has more FC experience than Panyangara, Duffin is hardly more experienced than Mawoyo, and definitely less than Waller and Mutizwa...I also concurred (and still do to an extent) that we need not pick flavour of the month for Tests, a Test side ought to be settled with the odd twick, for form and injury here and there. So Ncube, Meth, Chatara, Chinouya, as well as Rainsford and Masakadza should wait for such an opening. Let Vitori fail properly feel free to open a docket and file all his failings after a year or 5 matches present this. Your argument loses value if from the onset you are against a player, and at the slightest failure you jump up and down saying "I told you so, I told you so"...that is all too easy...every player is bound to fail at some point so anyone and everyone can get that right...

And sscricket, the only point you seem to agree with hhm is your sentence that says "Well said hhm. I have to agree with most of the things mentioned in your post." and the point on Mpofu and Price, the rest is in total contradiction, including Elton not being a bowler, and culminating in noting that Mpofu and Price are not match winners and the need to get match winners fast...and dare I say Vitori and Jarvis is an attempt at that? But agreed Test should never be an experimental platform..its for tried and tested, and if you go to my thread Meth vs Jarvis this was my very gripe about a 8 match FC Jarvis over a two consistent season Meth, but unlike some, I am open to accepting I was wrong, and since getting that break Jarvis has proved his worth...so I move on...others would never admit until their favourite was in...

...and Boundary says he hasn't changed his mind...eugene I think only agrees with dropping Vitori, but will let him speak for himslef..

I feel better now that's off my chest....

[FlowerPower]

PS: For my attack this is why I say they present variety:

Mpofu: Tall and has a bit of variety of deliveries, with a decent slower ball, personally I think he should cut out the variety and concentrate on line and length and do a solid containing job (which usually gets him wickets anyways) and his medium pace offers variety for the captain should his fast men start disappearing.

Jarvis: Raw pace, and lethal when he bowls straight and fast, and also gets swing, genuine strike bowler, and has shown steady progress (someone said we should keep him away from the silly T20, I tend to TOTALLY agree!)

Vitori: Being a left armer bowling in tendam with a right armer on the other end, gives the batsmen something else to deal with = don't let them settle..and also does get swing and seems to enjoy bowling to lefthanders...

Cremer: If Mpofu contains well, then then Price tends to be a luxurious insurance, let's face it Ray is class top ten in ODI, effective. I see Cremer polishing tails for fun, don't mistake him for a containing bowler, there is no one to defend that argument, he is just like most legspinners there to take wickets, and in the process runs may leak...but I don't mind a team going at five an over and all out in 50 overs!

First in the wings: Meth, his consistency makes him a ready made replacement for Mpofu, also a genuine swing merchant and in conducive conditions he is a must! I really don't think he is an ODI bowler (not to be misread as saying he is useless), but he is more suited to Test, and when the opportunity comes he deserves it.

Others in the queue, Rainsford, Querl, Masakadza, Chinouya, Ncube, Chatara, Panyangara (based on current form, which is decent, to replace Nicolson from my original list)

hhm I challenge you to do the same for your quartet of Elton, Rainsford, Mpofu and Price...bowlers I really rate


PS In ODI, Elton is first name as number 7 (5 bowler who shortens the tail) but test? He'd have to be better than Vitori, Jarvis, Mpofu and as a bowler, a decent one at that, he isn't better than those, and that's before I talk, Meth, Chinouya, Querl, Masakadza and all other challengers...but ODI he's a definite for number 7 (all rounder or specialist 5th bowler).

In Test number 7 is for a batter (ok wicket keeper batsman, but for us he bats higher so 7 becomes a batter's spot). If he can bowl all the better, but this is not a necessity as you have 4 unrestricted bowlers to do that job, so having a Kallis, Watson, Freddy (Flintoff), is all good, but most teams will still have their quartet (Cummings, Siddle, Johnson, Lyon), (Steyn, Morkel, Philander, Tahir),(Jones, Hoggard, Harmison, Jiles)....so for me if we want Chigs at 7 the question is: Is he better than (assuming Waller has sealed his place), Ervine or Mutizwa? Currently I'd have to say no, and in FC Mutizwa and Ervine are showing better form. If we really wanted to go with an "allrounder" in Test I'd prefer, Cremer who can bat a bit, and adds a whole dimension to the bowling and allows us the insurance of Price in the quartet...

i.e. 7. Cremer 8. Jarvis 9.Vitori 10. Price 11. Mpofu...but that's almost picking a 5 man attack and assuming our top 6 can make the runs...I'd rather we get to the point where top 6 DO make the runs, then drop the extra batsmen based on such knowledge for a Cremer preferably or a Chigs if the pitch is seam friendly...currently our top 6 doesn't guarantee us the runs so I would add Mutizwa or Ervine to bolster it, and hence a strict 4 man attack of Cremer, Jarvis, Vitori and Mpofu.