Logan Cup 2020 - 21 : Discussion

[zimbos_05]

The USA isn't without its problems, but then neither is anywhere else. I can name towns in Australia that are riddled with crime, racism, and poverty just as easily as I can find such things in the USA. And guess what, you are paying for your healthcare, where do you think the government gets its money from?

Definitely don't doubt that. There are problems everywhere, but the US is pretty much a bigger shit show than other places.

Well, yeah, thats what taxes are for. It's not, "pay taxes and then you must still pay for basic rights like health care because we're using the taxes all for the military"

[eugene]

I agree that the USA spends too much on military, although it doesn't help that much of Europe sponges off the USA when it comes to military alliances. The USA is simply much bigger and much more diverse than anywhere else - of course it is going to have more issues. But the original point was why would anyone (Corey Anderson) move from NZ to the USA, the answer is obvious to someone like me who has made the same move - the standard of living here is ultimately better and there are more opportunities.

[eugene]

I can name towns in Australia that are riddled with crime, racism, and poverty just as easily as I can find such things in the USA. And guess what, you are paying for your healthcare, where do you think the government gets its money from?

Go on then, what towns/ cities are you talking about?

Of course we're paying for healthcare, everyone knows that. the difference is everyone in Australia has access medicare and public hospital care. You see people here turned away because they can't afford a hospital bed.

Alice Springs has a crime rate six-times higher than Philadelphia.

[Kriterion_BD]

There are many factors that determine what a country is like. A recent Bangladeshi immigrant who lives in the Bronx and makes a living selling gyro platters on 6 Ave in Manhattan will have a different story to tell than someone like me - the son of Bangladeshi immigrants who was already born in the US. Who's account is the correct one? Answer depends on who's asking.

America is the land of opportunity, but just like everything, opportunity comes at a cost and that cost is that not everyone will get opportunity. Some will have to forgo college because they cannot afford to apply or attend. Some won't get opportunity because their health won't allow it. For some others it may have to do with their race or family background. Countries like Norway and Denmark probably offer the most level playing field for all to obtain the same opportunity as anyone else.

[zimbos_05]

the standard of living here is ultimately better and there are more opportunities.

We'll agree to disagree on this one

Alice Springs has a crime rate six-times higher than Philadelphia.

Crime is not a topic relating to taxes because taxes don't pay for crime. I see your point, just find it weak when discussing overall quality of living. In saying that, our criminal system is not a profiteering one that is dependent on crime increase and the crime in Alice Springs is a result of other factors in which the government certainly needs to do better.

As an outsider, America is probably one of the last places I would consider as a land of opportunity and 1st world systems. I'd rather go back to Africa.

[ZIMDOGGY]

I have spent a lot of time in the USA and talked to people that have lived in both.

I always find that the measure of a country’s success can just be tracked to who moves where.

When NZ gets into their little tiffs with Australia. I always point out how 20% of NZ moves to Australia and barely any the other way. That doesn’t happen for no reason.

With America, so many try to come to America and when Americans go abroad they often ultimately go back quickly.
A lot can’t handle Australia.
Go to the yanks down under page and it’s constant Australia bashing.

It’s always;
-lack of choice and variety of food
- too expensive
- lack of things to do outside the beach
- isolated
- Australia constantly jealous of America and comparing themselves to the USA
- aussies feel entitled to bash Americans in public at any given opportunity. The Americans in Oz genuinely seem to cop a lot of ‘accepted’ bigotry and it disappoints me because it’s just politics most of the time

And the healthcare thing in America isn’t as bad as people make out. No one actually gets turned away from beds. They just receive basic care. Stitch you up and go kinda thing. It’s not hugely different from Oz

[Zimco]

I have spent a lot of time in the USA and talked to people that have lived in both.

I always find that the measure of a country’s success can just be tracked to who moves where.

When NZ gets into their little tiffs with Australia. I always point out how 20% of NZ moves to Australia and barely any the other way. That doesn’t happen for no reason.

With America, so many try to come to America and when Americans go abroad they often ultimately go back quickly.
A lot can’t handle Australia.
Go to the yanks down under page and it’s constant Australia bashing.

It’s always;
-lack of choice and variety of food
- too expensive
- lack of things to do outside the beach
- isolated
- Australia constantly jealous of America and comparing themselves to the USA
- aussies feel entitled to bash Americans in public at any given opportunity. The Americans in Oz genuinely seem to cop a lot of ‘accepted’ bigotry and it disappoints me because it’s just politics most of the time

And the healthcare thing in America isn’t as bad as people make out. No one actually gets turned away from beds. They just receive basic care. Stitch you up and go kinda thing. It’s not hugely different from Oz

I agree with all this zimdoggy but in the USA what if you don't have a job and then you get very sick, aren't you f**cked?

There are more varied opportunities than in Aus in the USA but it is also less forgiving I'd say.

[ZIMDOGGY]

I have spent a lot of time in the USA and talked to people that have lived in both.

I always find that the measure of a country’s success can just be tracked to who moves where.

When NZ gets into their little tiffs with Australia. I always point out how 20% of NZ moves to Australia and barely any the other way. That doesn’t happen for no reason.

With America, so many try to come to America and when Americans go abroad they often ultimately go back quickly.
A lot can’t handle Australia.
Go to the yanks down under page and it’s constant Australia bashing.

It’s always;
-lack of choice and variety of food
- too expensive
- lack of things to do outside the beach
- isolated
- Australia constantly jealous of America and comparing themselves to the USA
- aussies feel entitled to bash Americans in public at any given opportunity. The Americans in Oz genuinely seem to cop a lot of ‘accepted’ bigotry and it disappoints me because it’s just politics most of the time

And the healthcare thing in America isn’t as bad as people make out. No one actually gets turned away from beds. They just receive basic care. Stitch you up and go kinda thing. It’s not hugely different from Oz

I agree with all this zimdoggy but in the USA what if you don't have a job and then you get very sick, aren't you f**cked?

There are more varied opportunities than in Aus in the USA but it is also less forgiving I'd say.

In some ways yes. In other ways no.

Someone unemployed is just on Medicare, which is like Aussie Medicare.
You fall, break your leg, doctor fixes it up.

Where I think you might get into issues is ok if you have require something that needs rehab. Not sure what happens there.
The ones who lose out are the people unemployed for al one time who aren’t on Medicare but that’s more neglect than structure.
Eugene might be better poised to describe it.

[Kriterion_BD]

In some ways yes. In other ways no.

Someone unemployed is just on Medicare, which is like Aussie Medicare.
You fall, break your leg, doctor fixes it up.

The US healthcare system is different from most other developed nations - and bear in mind that from a healthcare standpoint "developed" includes even countries like Saudi Arabia where the government funds access to healthcare for all citizens.

You're correct in that no doctor in the US will decline treatment to someone just because they can't pay.

But you're woefully mistaken if you think the story ends at "doctor fixes it up." Let me explain what happens...

A week after unemployed Bob gets his leg fixed, he gets a bill for $5000 dollars (500 for the x-ray, 2000 for ambulance ride, 2200 ER visit, 300 for the painkillers). He has a few thousand in his bank account from when he was employed and thinks he'll be responsible and pay what he can now. So he shells out 1000. But since he can't pay the remaining 4K, the bill eventually goes to collection, his credit score gets shot, which takes years to recover.

Meanwhile, Bob eventually manages to find a job a few months later. Because he has bad credit, he can't get an auto loan to buy a new car. So he has to take the low paying job thats walking distance. Because he has a low paying job, he has no money left over to pay his outstanding healthcare bill. Bob ends up never getting out of poverty despite having a job.

This is the story for the 80% of Americans who aren't millionaires. Eugene spoke about opportunity but forgot to mention the small % of people who have access to that opportunity. The guy who works at 7-11 doesn't have the same opportunities as the Harvard undergrad.

This is why universal basic income (states like NY, Mass, California are making progress getting there) and universal healthcare are vitally important.

[Kriterion_BD]

And the healthcare thing in America isn’t as bad as people make out. No one actually gets turned away from beds. They just receive basic care. Stitch you up and go kinda thing. It’s not hugely different from Oz

Not all medical problems are managed by stitches bro. If you have a heart attack, you don't' just stitch em up and send em on their way. If you have a brain tumor, you can't just stitch it up.