Logan Cup 2020 - 21 : Discussion

[ZIMDOGGY]

In some ways yes. In other ways no.

Someone unemployed is just on Medicare, which is like Aussie Medicare.
You fall, break your leg, doctor fixes it up.

The US healthcare system is different from most other developed nations - and bear in mind that from a healthcare standpoint "developed" includes even countries like Saudi Arabia where the government funds access to healthcare for all citizens.

You're correct in that no doctor in the US will decline treatment to someone just because they can't pay.

But you're woefully mistaken if you think the story ends at "doctor fixes it up." Let me explain what happens...

A week after unemployed Bob gets his leg fixed, he gets a bill for $5000 dollars (500 for the x-ray, 2000 for ambulance ride, 2200 ER visit, 300 for the painkillers). He has a few thousand in his bank account from when he was employed and thinks he'll be responsible and pay what he can now. So he shells out 1000. But since he can't pay the remaining 4K, the bill eventually goes to collection, his credit score gets shot, which takes years to recover.

Meanwhile, Bob eventually manages to find a job a few months later. Because he has bad credit, he can't get an auto loan to buy a new car. So he has to take the low paying job thats walking distance. Because he has a low paying job, he has no money left over to pay his outstanding healthcare bill. Bob ends up never getting out of poverty despite having a job.

This is the story for the 80% of Americans who aren't millionaires. Eugene spoke about opportunity but forgot to mention the small % of people who have access to that opportunity. The guy who works at 7-11 doesn't have the same opportunities as the Harvard undergrad.

This is why universal basic income (states like NY, Mass, California are making progress getting there) and universal healthcare are vitally important.

Thanks for clarifying, and I’m no expert on this topic.

But two things...
1. Isn’t it true you have a decent grace period if you get laid off? Can’t remember if it was 3-6 months but something like that.

2. If youre long term unemployed, how does Medicare work?

I think the bigger problem in US health is the price gouging and ripping off both the government and people. First thing that needs fixing.

[Kriterion_BD]

Thanks for clarifying, and I’m no expert on this topic.

But two things...
1. Isn’t it true you have a decent grace period if you get laid off? Can’t remember if it was 3-6 months but something like that.

2. If youre long term unemployed, how does Medicare work?

I think the bigger problem in US health is the price gouging and ripping off both the government and people. First thing that needs fixing.

I'm not an expert either. My sisters actually work in the healthcare admin side - I'm just a doctor who failed his medical boards haha.

1) That sounds about right probably. I'm sure there is some grace period. I know my employer allows 6 months after seperation for a former employee to use the money in their FSA or HMA account (its basically a savings account with employer contributions for healthcare expenses, but the employer actually owns the account). After 6 months, any money left in the account goes back to the employer. And you can't cash it out...it can only go towards medical expenses.

2) So Medicare is for the elderly 65+. Medicaid is for poor people. I'm not sure if the two programs are funded seperately or not. But those are state-based programs, meaning each individual state funds and controls how it works. Its not regulated federally, beyond perhaps the initial legislation to create the programs. Some states have better options than others. In general the Republican states tend to want to cut Medicaid and Democrats want to expand it.

A big problem here is that we have outside lobbyists that actually undermine the characterization of America as a democracy or even as a "Republic" (since thats a distinction people often emphasize). When legislators and/or the President is unduly influenced by big business lobbyists throwing millions or billions of dollars around, we become more of a plutocracy and not a democracy.

[sloandog]

Shall we get back to the Logan Cup?
Any news on teams or when we can expect a commencement date?

[zimbos_05]

I have spent a lot of time in the USA and talked to people that have lived in both.

I always find that the measure of a country’s success can just be tracked to who moves where.

When NZ gets into their little tiffs with Australia. I always point out how 20% of NZ moves to Australia and barely any the other way. That doesn’t happen for no reason.

With America, so many try to come to America and when Americans go abroad they often ultimately go back quickly.
A lot can’t handle Australia.
Go to the yanks down under page and it’s constant Australia bashing.

It’s always;
-lack of choice and variety of food
- too expensive
- lack of things to do outside the beach
- isolated
- Australia constantly jealous of America and comparing themselves to the USA
- aussies feel entitled to bash Americans in public at any given opportunity. The Americans in Oz genuinely seem to cop a lot of ‘accepted’ bigotry and it disappoints me because it’s just politics most of the time

And the healthcare thing in America isn’t as bad as people make out. No one actually gets turned away from beds. They just receive basic care. Stitch you up and go kinda thing. It’s not hugely different from Oz

I have to respectfully disagree here. In Aus, healthcare is not determined by your job. Yes you can have private health insurance, but if you do not have it, it does not disadvantage you in any way. The public system will still look after you and it's not just basic care. It's not just a stitch and go job. The pubic system will cover you especially if it is essential service. There are no ambulance bills or painkiller bills. When I was in the hospital they gave me all sorts of treatments and again, never received a single bill.

I do agree with some of your points about lack of options and Aus being isolated, but I guess that comes from the geographical location which is not really anything anyone can change. Lack of options i feel has more to do with very few controlling the economy and the LNP happy to suck up to them. NBN is a prime example of this.

I also think you would find more Australians are definitely not jealous of the USA. You are taking a very select group of individuals and using it to generalise.

[ZIMDOGGY]

I have spent a lot of time in the USA and talked to people that have lived in both.

I always find that the measure of a country’s success can just be tracked to who moves where.

When NZ gets into their little tiffs with Australia. I always point out how 20% of NZ moves to Australia and barely any the other way. That doesn’t happen for no reason.

With America, so many try to come to America and when Americans go abroad they often ultimately go back quickly.
A lot can’t handle Australia.
Go to the yanks down under page and it’s constant Australia bashing.

It’s always;
-lack of choice and variety of food
- too expensive
- lack of things to do outside the beach
- isolated
- Australia constantly jealous of America and comparing themselves to the USA
- aussies feel entitled to bash Americans in public at any given opportunity. The Americans in Oz genuinely seem to cop a lot of ‘accepted’ bigotry and it disappoints me because it’s just politics most of the time

And the healthcare thing in America isn’t as bad as people make out. No one actually gets turned away from beds. They just receive basic care. Stitch you up and go kinda thing. It’s not hugely different from Oz

I have to respectfully disagree here. In Aus, healthcare is not determined by your job. Yes you can have private health insurance, but if you do not have it, it does not disadvantage you in any way. The public system will still look after you and it's not just basic care. It's not just a stitch and go job. The pubic system will cover you especially if it is essential service. There are no ambulance bills or painkiller bills. When I was in the hospital they gave me all sorts of treatments and again, never received a single bill.

I do agree with some of your points about lack of options and Aus being isolated, but I guess that comes from the geographical location which is not really anything anyone can change. Lack of options i feel has more to do with very few controlling the economy and the LNP happy to suck up to them. NBN is a prime example of this.

I also think you would find more Australians are definitely not jealous of the USA. You are taking a very select group of individuals and using it to generalise.

There are definitely ambulance bills if you call one out. It varies by state. Nsw it’s about 500. Otherwise why have ambulance insurance?

As for the American comment, I’ve honestly lost count of how many articles this year I’ve seen with titles like ‘what do Americans think of Australian this or that’ and yes embarrassing
And we always compare ourselves to America every single time something needs to be compared internationally
Once you notice you’ll notice

[Kriterion_BD]

We have to factor in experience bias as well - we all have a tendency to take our personal experience and think that it applies to everyone else.

For example, as a brown man in America, I have personally had maybe a dozen interactions with the police - always traffic related. All of these experiences have been 100% professional and proper. I could conclude that therefore skin color is irrelevant to how one gets treated by the cops. But I also have friends and coworkers who are African-American and all of them have negative stories to tell.

The truth often lies between two opposing extremes.

[zimbos_05]

There are definitely ambulance bills if you call one out. It varies by state. Nsw it’s about 500. Otherwise why have ambulance insurance?

As for the American comment, I’ve honestly lost count of how many articles this year I’ve seen with titles like ‘what do Americans think of Australian this or that’ and yes embarrassing
And we always compare ourselves to America every single time something needs to be compared internationally
Once you notice you’ll notice

We don't pay in QLD. Completely free. We're even covered in other states. Other states have small fees but nothing like what is seen in America and it depends on the call out. My cousin is a manager with the Ambulance service so he's my reference.

I've never compared to America and a lot of people I know couldn't car about America. There's a big sentiment of not bothering about America now amongst many of the population.

Shall we get back to the Logan Cup?
Any news on teams or when we can expect a commencement date?

Wed live to, but looks like the Logan Cup doesn't want to get back to us.

I've seen nothing about it on any of the socials or anything like that. They need to be doing player announcements and building hype. ZC is poor at a lot, but their media department is atrocious

[ZIMDOGGY]

There are definitely ambulance bills if you call one out. It varies by state. Nsw it’s about 500. Otherwise why have ambulance insurance?

As for the American comment, I’ve honestly lost count of how many articles this year I’ve seen with titles like ‘what do Americans think of Australian this or that’ and yes embarrassing
And we always compare ourselves to America every single time something needs to be compared internationally
Once you notice you’ll notice

We don't pay in QLD. Completely free. We're even covered in other states. Other states have small fees but nothing like what is seen in America and it depends on the call out. My cousin is a manager with the Ambulance service so he's my reference.

I've never compared to America and a lot of people I know couldn't car about America. There's a big sentiment of not bothering about America now amongst many of the population.

Shall we get back to the Logan Cup?
Any news on teams or when we can expect a commencement date?

Wed live to, but looks like the Logan Cup doesn't want to get back to us.

I've seen nothing about it on any of the socials or anything like that. They need to be doing player announcements and building hype. ZC is poor at a lot, but their media department is atrocious

It is free in QLD but varies wildly in other states apparently. Victoria it’s over a thousand!

https://www.moneymag.com.au/cost-ambulance

[Googly]

ZC presumably have a media guy, but he doesn't appear to be allowed to say anything. In the recent past you could read stuff through Mehluli Sibanda, but I see he was mildly critical of something or other recently, a big first. Independent journalism doesn't exist anymore, it even extends to sports journalism. Its got to go across the editor's desk anyway. Its about total control and criticism is not tolerated.
You'd think there would be reporting on the club cricket, there's two leagues, very little exposure.
The franchise sides must be going into their snot bubble today. We had a lot of rain last night and its heavily overcast with more rain forecast every day. I'm not even sure whether they're playing 4 day or 50 over. I honestly don't see how it's going to be possible to get through 4 day cricket in this weather. The pitches will be so shit that you'll probably get a result.

[zimbos_05]

It is free in QLD but varies wildly in other states apparently. Victoria it’s over a thousand!

https://www.moneymag.com.au/cost-ambulance

Like I said, other states may pay, but again, not as much as the US overall.

ZC presumably have a media guy, but he doesn't appear to be allowed to say anything. In the recent past you could read stuff through Mehluli Sibanda, but I see he was mildly critical of something or other recently, a big first. Independent journalism doesn't exist anymore, it even extends to sports journalism. Its got to go across the editor's desk anyway. Its about total control and criticism is not tolerated.
You'd think there would be reporting on the club cricket, there's two leagues, very little exposure.
The franchise sides must be going into their snot bubble today. We had a lot of rain last night and its heavily overcast with more rain forecast every day. I'm not even sure whether they're playing 4 day or 50 over. I honestly don't see how it's going to be possible to get through 4 day cricket in this weather. The pitches will be so shit that you'll probably get a result.

Ooh, what did Melhuli do or say? I doubted he would ever be harsh. Is he not on the Matabeleland board? For someone who claims to be a highly rated sports journalist, you would think he would report on all these games.