[Player of the Year] VOTE: New Zealand T20/ODI

[Flower power]

How many left handed batsmen do we have on our books . I would prefer Craig Ervine because of the simple fact that he is left handed . Left Right hand combinations at the crease unsettle bowlers .If it is a one way ticket like it is of right hand batsmen only like it is done bowlers or fielders are not challenged .
I would develop the lefty and give him confidence .
Andy Flower was left handed and I luved o watch him lay with a right hand bat , AC or Grant , Carlisle , Goodwin ,Johnson .
Thats my reasoning for picking Ervine .

[FlowerPower]

How many left handed batsmen do we have on our books . I would prefer Craig Ervine because of the simple fact that he is left handed . Left Right hand combinations at the crease unsettle bowlers .If it is a one way ticket like it is of right hand batsmen only like it is done bowlers or fielders are not challenged .
I would develop the lefty and give him confidence .
Andy Flower was left handed and I luved o watch him lay with a right hand bat , AC or Grant , Carlisle , Goodwin ,Johnson .
Thats my reasoning for picking Ervine .

If you have followed my Ervine arguments power, you will see I have always said a FORM Ervine is a huge plus for the team, but wonder how many would pick Zhuawo (not that Ervine is that bad, even off form!), just because he is a lefty or Duffin ( I can see hhm frowning already!) opening ahead of better form batsman, because "he is an opener") ...precisely my point, its not lefty for the sake of lefty, Ervine must be on form to justify getting in ahead of Mutizwa, being lefty or "looking good" alone doesn't cut it for me, I prefer concrete results, not to say your argument is irrelevant.

[brmtaylor.com admin]

How many left handed batsmen do we have on our books . I would prefer Craig Ervine because of the simple fact that he is left handed . Left Right hand combinations at the crease unsettle bowlers .If it is a one way ticket like it is of right hand batsmen only like it is done bowlers or fielders are not challenged .
I would develop the lefty and give him confidence .
Andy Flower was left handed and I luved o watch him lay with a right hand bat , AC or Grant , Carlisle , Goodwin ,Johnson .
Thats my reasoning for picking Ervine .

If you have followed my Ervine arguments power, you will see I have always said a FORM Ervine is a huge plus for the team, but wonder how many would pick Zhuawo (not that Ervine is that bad, even off form!), just because he is a lefty or Duffin ( I can see hhm frowning already!) opening ahead of better form batsman, because "he is an opener") ...precisely my point, its not lefty for the sake of lefty, Ervine must be on form to justify getting in ahead of Mutizwa, being lefty or "looking good" alone doesn't cut it for me, I prefer concrete results, not to say your argument is irrelevant.

Yeah, good point. Maybe if selection came down to a marginal decision (ie. two players in good form) then being left handed might swing it in Ervine's favour, but right now Waller has totally eclipsed him and possibly Mutizwa as well. Ervine needs runs at domestic level.

[hhm]

How many left handed batsmen do we have on our books

Really Jnr Power! Well, 1Duffin, 2Craig, 3they don't count

how many would pick [Duffin] just because he is a lefty or ....opening ahead of better form batsman, because "he is an opener", its not lefty for the sake of lefty, being lefty or "looking good" alone doesn't cut it for me, I prefer concrete results not to say your argument is irrelevant.

Duffin will do the job, and neither you or anybody else has a sound basis to say he WILL fail. If a lesser mature Tino was plucked from nowhere, lacking the record or concrete results to justify that faith, but has fairly delivered since, then certainly Duffin can do more, or should I say he stands a good chance of doing just as well.

Think about it:
i)One would be correct to say Tino didn't exactly fail but definitely did not succeeded in the FC games against Aus XI;
ii)He failed miserably in the XI game against lowly Bangladesh, but still played the Test where his return was nothing to write home about;
iii)He again failed in the Pakistan XI game, but played the Test where he outdid himself in the first innings;
iv)The XI game against NZ was more of the same as he failed to produce anything at all, but went on to have modest returns in the Test.
Another case of more bad than good.

Let's be practical about all of this and accept that until these other guys get their chance, we won't know how well they'll do. If 'new' guys like Tino, Jarvis & Vitori, who have a far weaker background, can come from nowhere and do relatively well, while 'older' guys like Taylor, Mpofu & Vusi with far below-average records can also come back to Tests and kick-on, then on what basis can people say guys like Duffin, Ewing, Matsi, Rainsford & Panyangara will fall short of what's required. There is no consistent trend. So if you are writing off anyone, it's because you choose to, which you're entitled to, not because they actually won't deliver! Tino was not in form when he was chosen to play, and it's very hard to actually say when he has ever been in form. Same applies to Vitori etc!

Look at Fidel, Rampaul, Sammy & Samuels (many are even calling for the return of Ganga!). They are back in the frame for WI and are doing well. The way things are going, Zim will be exactly like Bangladesh too. They ignore the likes of Saleh, Baisya & Kapali etc over and over again but gradually get fed up with the youngsters and keep dropping them one for another until they go back to those likes of Ash&Mortaza again. Yes, round and round in circles simply because of prematurely discarding the experienced palyers, and when a sequence of bad results inevitably strikes, you're stuck in between, and keep going back and forth second guessing yourself as selectors. I can already see a small trend starting too develop in our case where the bowlers are concerned, and for the batsmen this Craig/Waller/Mutizwa/Chakabva etc will also pose a problem as it becomes more frequent.

A hierarchy needed to be established from the onset, where senior players have precedence, but due to poor performances are gradually and permanently replaced by the top youngsters as per FC/List A performances. That way a clear transition would've been mapped out. As forumers we're caught up in a funny exchange about this at the moment, when it's clear that times change very quickly and these characters you're writing off will be a feature once again whether you like it or not, and whether they are on form or not. Only then they'll be even older. That's what pressure does/will do. Believe it or not but that's Test cricket. When you see the likes of Steyn and co running rings around a quality Aus lineup (as they did an even better Indian one last time around), and you witness Clarke smashing them in classical fashion at the same time, then it's is to us conceding 600 runs and losing by an innings and 200 runs once more. Zim v NZ was like club cricket in comparison to this. What we're seeing now is Test cricket, and these boys haven't seen it yet. They've only seen the nightmares of Hafeez, McCullum, Tanvir & Ajmal for just 10 overs at most!

[eugene]

So basically hhm, you believe we should select every player in the system at some point for the national side to find out how they will do? Dropping players who are performing just so you can see how someone else will do is idiocy. I really have no interest in how players like Mawoyo perform in A matches and other meaningless games. As long as he is performing at in tests he can stay in the side.

The comparison with Bangladesh would be more relevant if our young players who we select were constantly failing which they are not.

[hhm]

So basically hhm, you believe we should select every player in the system at some point for the national side to find out how they will do? Dropping players who are performing just so you can see how someone else will do is idiocy.

That's the problem right there. I tell you there's bits of goat poo in my front yard, but you go and tell your wife I said my front yard is litterd with cow dung!

I never said give everyone I chance because you have to work from something! I said unless specific people get a chance we cannot know for sure and 'debate' objectively, but went on to say that whatever the case may be, inevitably everyone justifiable WILL get a chance WHEN, not if, challenging circumstances inevitably force the hand of selectors.

My reference to Tino (and even Jarvis, Vitori etc) does not focus on how/why he is/will stay in the team but HOW HE GOT THERE, in comparison to the so called 'concrete results' expected of the others! Those guys came from nowhere. CONTEXT! Tino is unique because even in the trials he didn't do much but look at him now! At least Njabulo was plucked from being among the top of the List A performers at this moment, the rest came from trials(few innings or overs in the space of a month or two, in games which we were steamrolled), but with poor or non-existent FC! I doubt you can find that anywhere else in the serious part of the world!

Apart from regulars Tamim & Shakib who tower over our best players and will probably continue to do so for sometime to come (considering the level Tamim has reached at an even younger age), the likes of Kayes, Mahmudullah, Nafees, Shahadat and many more, who have been in and out of that team have records which are comparable to our best if not better. At least they've spent time in different conditions, at around the same ages of our players back then, playing against top sides but their stats didn't suffer that much. Bangladesh is a horrible team and they have lost embarrassingly. Question is will our individual players stats(averages) and team stats (wins/draws/losses) be much better after we've gone through the same process? That remains to be seen. I personally have no confidence whatsoever that we'll be able to hold back the charge of the top sides at all! I see more of the same as what Bangladesh is experiencing!

[Jemisi]

Hhm, now you're talking. Ervine has had a raw deal. We don't often drop test players averaging 32.

I think Craig is class, and yes maybe the drop (specifically for the Test squad, not so much the ODI) was a tad premature, as he had only played 2 matches (4 innings), but we must be factual about the average of 32, its a bit like reading too much into Mawoyo's average after the 164* (you must have a look at them they are quite a sight)....they don't really say anything, the guy has a 6, 5, 35*, and 49 (the 35* masking a lot).

Having said that, the only thing saving an equally famined Hami now is his 100 against Bangladesh, he and Ervine for me need to really work hard before the NZ tour to earn a spot, but I really don't have qualms with Waller getting ahead, he's earned it, and proved a worthy replacement. But I really do want to see a form left handed Ervine back, just can't see who for.

But his 35 was a genuine not out. He was likely to make more runs in that innings, it wasnt just being the no10 left standing when Mpofu gets knocked over. He would likely to have gone on to more runs in that innings and that is why averages work the way they do. I'm not saying Waller shouldn't be in the team, if you look at my picks, I have both of them in there. Reading too much into Tinos average is more about it being a standout big hundred which is likely to produce a high average that will taper off some rather than the not out.

[sscricket]

I think you guys are touching on a very important subject. It is clear that the national team selections are not merit based and the selectors dont seem to have any rational criteria or intuitive ability to judge talent. The selectors are simply incompetent in judging which domestic players are likely to succeed internationally and they seem to throw everyone in randomly even though their first class records suggest otherwise.

Come on, any batsman from Zim first class level will have a even poorer average when he debuts and the bowlers will get tonked even more...

The guys on this forum will do a better job than the Zimbabwe selection panel as far as I can see.

I am totally against going back to old players like Matsi, Rainsford etc unless they dominate at domestic levels. If you are a class batsman or bowler that should be fairly easy to do right?
An average player will remain an average player if he is not working and improving on his game at the domestic level!

[eugene]

Matsi and Rainsford are hardly excelling domestically so I see no reason to select them. Matsi had 8 years of opportunities, why give him any more. I can't think of any player ever who has suddenly excelled after 8 years of mediocrity.

[CrimsonAvenger]

hhm, not all success stories, specially with bowling, are of people who had enormous FC experience before making their debut on the international scene. If I remember correctly, Imran Khan picked up Wasim Akram from nowhere, and Brian Lara just felt that Fidel Edwards could just be the weapon he wanted after a session of net bowling. Both of them had no proper FC exposure when they made their international debut, and the rest is history.

It is the same Fidel you are quoting when you are refering to the experienced WI attack. Why can't we hope to unearth a talent of that kind in a Vitori or a Jarvis? As long as we don't get carried away and hand the caps to anybody who turns up and took a 5-for in a domestic game last week, things should be ok. You are looking at potential and talent more than anything else, when you judging people with very less track record, and you are banking on your hunch to lead you through. There are many decisions that would have to be made that way.

Also, we don't need to develop vitriol towards Rainsford just because there are a lot of threads talking about Rainsford Vs Jarvis. This need not be Rainsford Vs Jarvis. Jarvis is in the team and has proved that he deserves to be there, whereas Rainsford not your average joe who is making up the numbers in the domestic scene. He has been a proven performer in the past, at the highest level, but is out of it due to injuries and off form. In fact, when on song, he has a nice smooth action and a great seam position after delivery, which lands on the deck with no wobble, thus maximizing movement from the deck. He is an extremely useful bowler, but just that he needs to put in the performances and need to stay fit to stake the claim again. Him and Williams have been the most talented yet the most injury prone guys we have had.