Sibanda's NZ tour in doubt?

[FlowerPower]

Outburst? Im my sentence I don't think there was barely any emotion in there, just sentiment. So because I dared to differ with rest of the forum my sentiments are labelled an outburst? This time it is you who has lost the plot FlowerPower.......I agree, his worth should be measured only by what he brings on the table. In any case without anyone really knowing proof exactly what tribal affiliation Vusi is, (if it should matter an iota at all!!) -- though his name and surname indeed strongly suggest a Ndebele link -- all this is a moot point, and I don't think it was right that hhm intimates tribal connotations or prejudices when there has been no proof or suggestions of such. Better still, it is an argument that I should have stayed well clear of -- its does not have substance until it is proved otherwise!!

my apology maybe "outburst is an inappropriate term"....my bad...accept my apology...what I should have said was I disagree with your line of thought as to your conclusion as to Vusi's tribal linage....and also glad we agree the tribal linage is a moot point...

Conant has a vaguely legitimate point here though I think...the problem with not playing in Zim is that everyone with a little skill and opportunity to go abroad may do so and that would leave the domestic FC system all the poorer. They should be encouraged to stay but one can hardly enforce it without, as you say, "scoring an own goal". In any case, the main thing is they should have been open with him beforehand (maybe they were and he decided to 'hear' Butcher's assurances only - we're in the dark as usual)

I somewhat agree and also disagree. I agree with better players leaving our FC does weaken, but I believe the Ballances, Ervines and Wessels (if paid and welcomed) will gladly plug the gaps, I also think your Irelands and Camerons will also be more than happy to pitch in, yes many in these nick of woods will not like them but few will argue with the quality they bring on board, forget their misdeeds for a while. I disagree with binding Vusi, Taylor and any other who may want a different experience elsewhere, as long as this does NOT temper with their availability for national duty...and besides there is always a young talent waiting in the wings, and there are plenty of experienced players such as Hondo, Ewing, Dabengwa, Duffin, Matsikenyeri who probably will not want to wander off that much.

I just dont get this wanting to slave-like fixation of tying everyone down.

But without beating around the bush, I suspect its all an ego trip, Vusi didnt sign up for the T20, and chose to go to Australia, and hence "lets fix the little *@!***..." that's my conspirancy theory, if true, then these are very SMALL men we are dealing with

[ZIMDOGGY]

I don't think it is that at all.

Zim just enforcing their own border protection policy and rules are rules, whether it's sibsnda or simon mugava. Australia and all the other countries I can think of do the same.

If we allow all our stars to play anywhere during Logan season- then it creates the real potential of the Logan cup being resigned to even more of a Mickey mouse league than it is.
Fringe players, seasoned vets, you name it will be jetting for overseas holidays under the guise of cricket, or a young player like pj moor might go to Ireland and get "tapped up" as he gets to know the people there. Next thing you know the biggest star of the domestic scene will be matsi.

All this would be minimized with these rules. Although I think there should be some flexibility.

[brmtaylor.com admin]

Is Taylor's case very different - or what?

Which is precisley the point, isnt it? The fact is, of all important days in the calendar, Vusi chose to turn his back on this one.!!

I genuinely don't know why, if VS is being questioned, Taylor is not ... but one of us is misinformed because I thought Vusi was at the training - while Taylor was not - and, like Taylor, available for selection! It's difficult to see what he's done wrong really

My feeling is that the HRV Cup, being a recognised domestic competition, is a step above what would be on offer back in Zimbabwe. The Sydney league probably is as well but ultimately it is only club cricket and it's all about perception. By playing in the HRV Cup, Taylor is being exposed to a lot of people and it looks good for ZC to have a Zimbabwean player participating in a quality tournament in a western country. That's why I suspect ZC would also encourage people to play in county cricket, Sheffield Shield, Supersport series, etc if the opportunity arose. Club cricket, regardless of the quality, doesn't have that same sort of mass appeal and is therefore not as valuable PR-wise.

[hhm]

Zimdoggy is quite right in highlighting that Zim, just like other Full Members, is entitled to enforce such rules and make an example of Vusi, and if consistency will be maintained I'm personally for that move.

BRM, while Taylor may be playing in a "higher league", and also participated in our T20 competition, the fact is Vusi was scheduled to play more Grade cricket games but chose to come back seeing as he was announced to be part of the camp, Taylor on the other hand being captain, is away from from camp. As a result I'm in agreement with betterdays when he questitions Vusi's case being treated differently. Afterall, despite turning down a domestic contract, Vusi has been playing for Zim all season, to the point of returning prematurely while still grieving the loss of his mother, and has been the best batsmen for Zim across all formats and series!

However, FP&Conant, to deny that tribalism exists is akin to assuming that if Zim had: Sports Min-Aeneas Chigwerere; Selectors-Makoni(Convener), Mutendera&Nkala; Coaches-Hondo, Maregwede & Mawhire; Media Liason-Tich Mataz, instead of Coltart, AC, Mutendera, Rennie, Butcher, Heath, Grant & Manthorp respectively, then the ICC would have 'allowed' us to resume Tests, Aus would have still graced us with a long tour of their A team, while NZ would've been itching to tussle with us in our backyard!

Fact is, if this was Elton or Prosper, I doubt it would've been an issue! Throughout history the south of Zim has always provided the national team with more quality seamers, regardless of race or ethnicity: Mbangwa, Heath, John Rennie, Olonga, Nkala, now Mpofu, Meth & Ncube! The presence of Mpofu and Sibanda in the national team doesn't hide the fact that bias exists, and will always exist! Your denial is a clear sign that you don't belong to the minority. Regarding my view of it where Vusi's situation is concerned, it's not proven, but relevant!

[brmtaylor.com admin]

hhm, I think you might have only read my first sentence
Yes the HRV Cup is of a higher standard - but it's the perception that matters most. It gives more legitimacy to Zimbabwean cricket if a player is selected to play for a First Class side in New Zealand than a district side in Sydney.

[zimfan1]

The difference between Vusi and Taylor is that Taylor HAS NOT MISSED ANY GAMES FOR THE RHIONS

In the period that Taylor has been away he has not missed any games for his franchise as they did not play in the last round of the Logan Cup/OD comp. I know they are due to play tomorrow but not even sure if the franchise players will be avaliable

[Conant]

my apology maybe "outburst is an inappropriate term"....my bad...accept my apology...what I should have said was I disagree with your line of thought as to your conclusion as to Vusi's tribal linage....and also glad we agree the tribal linage is a moot point...

Apology accepted , and yes I think ego trip might be a very appropriate term here

[
But without beating around the bush, I suspect its all an ego trip, Vusi didnt sign up for the T20, and chose to go to Australia, and hence "lets fix the little *@!***..." that's my conspirancy theory, if true, then these are very SMALL men we are dealing with

Surprise, surprise... I get a most unexpected ally in zimdooggy!!

I don't think it is that at all.

Zim just enforcing their own border protection policy and rules are rules, whether it's sibsnda or simon mugava. Australia and all the other countries I can think of do the same.

If we allow all our stars to play anywhere during Logan season- then it creates the real potential of the Logan cup being resigned to even more of a Mickey mouse league than it is.
Fringe players, seasoned vets, you name it will be jetting for overseas holidays under the guise of cricket, or a young player like pj moor might go to Ireland and get "tapped up" as he gets to know the people there. Next thing you know the biggest star of the domestic scene will be matsi.

All this would be minimized with these rules. Although I think there should be some flexibility.

[hhm]

hhm, I think you might have only read my first sentence
Yes the HRV Cup is of a higher standard - but it's the perception that matters most. It gives more legitimacy to Zimbabwean cricket if a player is selected to play for a First Class side in New Zealand than a district side in Sydney.

Didn't think it would altr my argument much, but I did the read it, and I agree with you wholeheartedly! Perception matters, unlike Taylor, Vusi's going to a provincial 50over&Twenty20 competition(no matter how rewarding and competitive it may be), at the expense of our FC, ListA & T20, certainly undermines Zimbabwe cricket, not to mention his worth!

[ZIMDOGGY]

After some thought, this Is what I think the rules going forth should be;

- Every player must commit to at least 2 games of the Zimbabwean domestic season, one of which must be a Logan cup game. Only proven injuries will excempt.

- players are only to be released to first class contracts (sibanda- no, Taylor,yes) such as the Sheffield shield. They must have a contract and there must be a genuine belief that the standard is higher and things van be learnt.

-In the event am off shore gig is approved, contractual money from the domestic club is relinquished. This probably goes without saying, but it's important to state how this can be twisted positively to save a buck.

- Players must abstain from constant whining, playing park hockey whilst overseas and courting married women.

-off season- any player can play wherever they wish

[FlowerPower]

Zimdoggy all well to prosecute based on RULES. In a lawful society you make the rules then apply the rule. Vusi is being tried on nonexistent rules. Vusi refused to sign for our T20. The coach didn't have a problem with it. ZC said nothing. So I assume despite not being palatable for ZC it was above board. (see bayhaus' conspiracy 4 thread).

Hhm As I said without evidence it's difficult to say it's a case of tribalism I did not categorically dismiss it. Tribalists in Zim exist...in abundance, but we need to be careful not to label everything involving a persecuted group as an ism...note I don't rule it out and having lived in Bulawayo for a huge chunk of my life I know it is real and horrible. But Taibu who is Shona has also suffered at the hands of the same people. I think this is a simple case of a vindictive regime trying to scare all into line.