[Match Thread] Zimbabwe v NewZealand (3rd ODI)

[hhm]

I think hhm's issue is he doesn't want young players period. Although I tend to get his reasoning: let them find their feet in FC then expose them when they are finished articles, and let the old heads hold fort, and now that there is no walk out in progress or looming, we have enough older heads, whilst the youngsters learn their trade. I somewhat get it, but I think he tends to be too hard and fast, I mean look at Sachin, Lara, Clarke, Broad, AB, Steyn, Boucher, Kallis all started relatively young so I don't think a hard and fast rule should apply, if the kid is good enough send him through, but at the same time we tend to take the post 2004 scenario as a defacto standard, i.e. young can find their feet in international stage, which may not be entirely healthy...I advocate a middle of the ground approach with each case dealt with on its merit.

I have nothing against youngsters. My point is the so called 'old heads' are not past it as some of you make it out to be but in their prime - and they certainly did nothing to deserve being dropped. Well they were never dropped in the first place, just not selected/used upon resumption of Tests! The way I see it, they are more ready than these guys to produce and it was a mistake to use these youngsters. Best to have thrown them in to a cricekt academy and gotten sponsorship to have them host and take frequent A tours all over the world (e.g. Ind, SL, SA, Eng etc), like the Eng Lions plus SA, NZ, Ind & Aus Emrging, while these moremature guys played for 2-3 years. That way we would have had an solid unit by that time. Obviously some of them would get international matches within that time, but they would be reserves not main players.

On the same token, even though I'm Tuskers through and through, I will not hype up Ncube, Meth, Querl & Mushangwe no matter how well they do because afterwards it's all downhill because at this day and age in international crikcet you get found out very quickly. This is not pathetic Bangladesh, it's Pak and NZ. The fact that Ban beat NZ counts for zilch!

Price needs to retire from ODIs & T20s and focus on Tests and coaching period. I said it at the start of the A Team Tri Series already!

[Jemisi]

I mostly agree with Hhm on the established players in general. I mean the established FC players as well as internationals. But we do obviously need to keep trying out youngsters as well. Sometimes a guy can step up a level and another can't, even though they might have similar stats at FC level. M.Clarke is an example.

But Price retiring from the shorter forms?? He holds us together most of the time. And four or five tests a year is not a heavy enough burden to make it like he needs a rest.

[FlowerPower]

As intimated hhm I get your point somewhat, but I would rather a middle of the road approach, if Ballance were available, I'd hope despite his being only 21, you'd want him ahead of all the Ebrahims, Ewings and Vermulens due his talent and not hindered by his age/experience...and on cue as if to drive your point home, carnage on the pitch

[Jemisi]

our fielding is atrocious

[Jemisi]

not eh captain participates in a series of shockers

[hhm]

not eh captain participates in a series of shockers

Taylor is probably among the least agile of our fielders, but because he's captain he wants to field in the covers so he can give his two cents worth of advice to the bowlers. He forgets that despite being a captain, he's anything but a Ponting - actually the opposite when it comes to fielding standards! As for his captaincy - he didn't need to hold back Ncube and Mushangwe, should have just bowled them through. They were doing well and we had the momentum - more pressure would have led to either wickets or a smaller total to chase. Waller is a part-time which means 3-4 overs to fill up the 10 overs for a struggling bowler e.g Meth. In that case Elton & Price would've filled their quota. There isn't a single mature bowler to guide these young seamers - which backs up my point!

You're both quite right Jemisi & Flower Power, exceptions should be made towards exceptional youngsters and you will have noticed that I did say they should be used in international matches from time to time, and persisted with if they make the opportunity stick. But bear in mind that, as with Ballance, even if you're a young and brilliant Bell, Cook, Clarke, Anderson and Hughes, you will hit a bad patch and be dropped, not because you're not good enough, but simply because you haven't matured to the requisite level for Test cricket. Ballance might not be able to replicate his County form next season, he might even have a lean spell for two seasons. Tsotsobe failed to come right in County cricket. The bottom line is you need to mature both in terms of age, skill, exposure and mentally before you can be good enough to be a World Class Test player. Andy Flower only got to the point where he was regarded as a top player well into his late years. Zaheer Khan is only now in the last few years starting to be respected when the likes of Campbell and Grant would look at him disrespect initially - why? He matured! Not get faster or bigger!

You guys need to do some introspection or self-analysis as to your honest opinion about this. Think about it. Jarvis, Vitori, Mutizwa, Waller, Cremer etc can continue to stuff up and we'll all be disappointed in them but at the end of the day you don't get harsh towards them simply because you can still say 'they are young and growing up and we shouldn't expect much from them'. They have no pressure to deliver and feel no accountability for their performances. They go to sleep at peace. Whereas you would have every right to scold and tear to pieces the likes of Ewing, Tainsford and Matsi from the outset because they've been there. But you also have the confidence that they have the maturity to respond to pressure and feel accountable and be able to deliver. It's he same if you think of similar in Aus for expample Smith-North; Cummins-Bollinger, Hughes-Katich. Youngsters are concerned about their Xboxes/PS3s while more mature players will listen to Boycott or read a book from Gooch and see how best they can deliveer in order to remain at the top and feed their families. Haven't you noticed? In Test cricket if you look at the national teams, key mature players are literally part of the furniture and hard to drop if at all, despite questionable performances. Most pf these top teams have hardly changed in the last 8-10 years and some of these players are 33-38 years of age and they only started hitting to form much later. Tendulkar etc are one in a million!

[Dr_Situ(ZimFanatic)]

Andy Flower only got to the point where he was regarded as a top player well into his late years.

I completely disagree. Watch the New Plymouth ODI again where Andy scored a debut ton in ODI. Watch the Harare test again and you will agree that it was Houghton-Andy p'ship which was more entertaining. He followed it up with Delhi test few tests later and than Pak exploits.

But you also have the confidence that they have the maturity to respond to pressure and feel accountable and be able to deliver.

Back to this match. What the more experienced player Sibanda has done. Nothing, just minnow bashing against Bangla which fooled us that he has rejuvenated, reinvented. Hamilton too has been out of sorts except the comeback ton. He isnt doing anything today apart from putting pressure on Taylor. It's a matter of time before Taylor will be out outta frustration and Maza will labored to 50 plus

[Jemisi]

A better effort from Hami that over.

[FlowerPower]

hhm Valid points, and the more I think about it, the more credence your argument has, not just because I'm dissapointed about the current series but generally there is sence to what you say. To some degree that's what I have said about Ervine and Chigs (albeit for form not experience), I have said they should go back to FC and find themselves there.

Having said all this who would we then have in such a team of wise heads? Ebrahim is now coaching, Vermeulen is around but erratic, I suppose Vusi, Taibu and Hami would count as old heads, and Taylor your exceptional youngster, Ervine (srn) doesn't want to play for us, and ofcourse how could I forget Ewing? hhm would kill me! As for the bowling, I really don't rate any of the old guard, I mean Rainsford, Panyangara, Mahwire, etc, for me had chances before and never measured up, even Ireland for me is no better than Jarvis, Mpofu and Vitori, but if we are to follow your argument, and the purpose is to "hide" the youngsters, then I reluctantly agree.

1. Duffin 2. Vermeulen 3. Taylor 4. Mastikenyeri 5. Ewing 6. Taibu 7. Chigs 8.Hondo 9.Rainsford 10.Panyangara 11. Price

(would this be the "sheilding" team? say for about 3/4 years)

Feels backward step to me, but I suppose the path we are going aint working...

PS whether you like him or not Taylor is rare class, unlike Andy before who had a team willing to work around him, this guy has to do it single handedly, I mean if 2 of the other guys went with him we would we a few...I just wonder what goes through his mind as all around him just fluff around....I feel for him, really I do...and would such displays really entice Ballance? I doubt it...finally Hami gets a boundary!!

[Conant]

Brendan Taylor taking the attack to the New Zealanders. His game plan reminding me a bit of a vintage Andy Flower at this stage. This is the kind of mind set that we're looking for, give yourself the best shot at winning the game before you concede defeat.

Pity Vusi had to go out early, can't believe how easily he was suckered off his game as soon as they saw a spinner instead off pace bowler.

Not asking for his head yet, but when was Price's last wicket, and when was the last time he bowled a sub 4 game?

[
Price needs to retire from ODIs & T20s and focus on Tests and coaching period. I said it at the start of the A Team Tri Series already!

PS: I see you still haven't taken me up on my offer, hhm?