Is 54 all out vs Afghanistan in Harare the lowest point?

[Kriterion_BD]

The original injury is the farm invasions. The blank cheque that was written to the thieves at that time in the nation's history has allowed us to get to this point.

Cutting off the cash may well reduce the number of thieves but it won't get rid of them. I have seen too many people stealing the smallest scraps from one another. ZC will thieve and waste an Assoc. Budget just like they do a Full Member one.

I don't think being chucked out is the way forward. The only way forward is getting rid of the crooks and their ghost workers through a new political setup.

You may very well be correct. Actually you definitely are.

But how do you fix the political setup without revolution or a civil war? Its like proposing an end to terrorism in Pakistan, war in Afghanistan, and corruption in Bangladesh. Zimbabwe would have to become a fundementally different country to gain good governance. Put another way, Sri Lanka, in terms of human development are a league ahead of Bangladesh, Pakistan, and even India. Yet their board is also not the best run unit in cricket. Some of it comes down to luck. There is no other way to explain why Bangladesh and Afghanistan have semi-decently run cricket boards other than pure luck. We can't run anything else remotely well. Could also be anti Murphy's law...surely, not everything in a system can be fucked up, right?

So there is a 0.1% chance of smoothly fixing the general climate in Zimbabwe. But even then, what happens on field when all the off field issues are resolved?

The most important thing is all the money, and its not just a few hundred thousand dollars but tens of millions of dollars that ZC wastes that other sides lose out on that is disappointing and even infuriating. I cannot imagine how I'd feel if it were Bangladesh instead of Afghanistan or Ireland. It would even be unacceptable if the money was being put to good use and Zimbabwe still lost matches. But this is like a double insult.

I just hope the ICC gives the BCCI the 21% they have currently, and then push the full member criteria out, demote ZC to Associate member, create the 9-3 Test league and 13 team ODI league, and finally bring context and meritocracy to international cricket.

[JHunter]

The original injury is the farm invasions. The blank cheque that was written to the thieves at that time in the nation's history has allowed us to get to this point.

Cutting off the cash may well reduce the number of thieves but it won't get rid of them. I have seen too many people stealing the smallest scraps from one another. ZC will thieve and waste an Assoc. Budget just like they do a Full Member one.

I don't think being chucked out is the way forward. The only way forward is getting rid of the crooks and their ghost workers through a new political setup.

Exactly. I alluded to the same thing in this other thread.

Even if Zimbabwe were to be demoted to associate membership, unless the personnel in ZC changed, then ZC would still misappropriate whatever funds are given by the ICC.

It's not the system, it's the people in it. Just as how frequent debates about whether a country should have a presidential or parliamentary democracy or first-past-the-post or proportional representation misses the point that if your system is full of crooks then the system will become crooked, so this debate on membership status misses the point entirely that changing the status from full member to associate is actually no solution at all and actually detrimental. The true solution is to clean house of the personnel.

Perhaps the solution is to be found in the experience of another African nation over a decade ago....Kenya. The KCA was discredited and and new body organized to replace it, Cricket Kenya. Eventually the ICC mediated and facilitated new elections and a new constitution for the KCA which smoothed the transition over to Cricket Kenya formally. If the ICC suspended (but not demoted) ZC over misuse of funds, but set up a facility so that local Zimbabwean clubs could present their audited expenses to the facility and have those bills paid from ZC's share of ICC funding then this could enable local club personnel and cricketers who aren't corrupted to stay in the game so to speak and allow them to organize a rival body (let's call it "Cricket Zimbabwe")...or rather a pressure group instead of a rival body and call it the "Cricket Zimbabwe Committee" or "Cricket Reform Committee" with the aim to push for new elections in ZC and a new constitution which would wind up ZC and replace it with "Cricket Zimbabwe".

[Kriterion_BD]

Even if Zimbabwe were to be demoted to associate membership, unless the personnel in ZC changed, then ZC would still misappropriate whatever funds are given by the ICC.

Better a couple hundred grand than millions.

That being said, I must modify my stance a little. I don't think Zimbabwe should be demoted due to performance. Governance, absolutely. But not performance. In any league there are good teams, decent teams, and bad teams. There is no rule that says every team has to be great. However, if there must only be 10 or 11 or 12 teams at the top, then yes whichever team is at the bottom should get the boot.

With Test/ODI leagues, I think this will be a moot and meritocratic point anyways. Whoever finishes at the bottom might get relegated out. Although I don't really like the idea of relegation for Test cricket.

[Kriterion_BD]

[
Perhaps the solution is to be found in the experience of another African nation over a decade ago....Kenya. The KCA was discredited and and new body organized to replace it, Cricket Kenya. Eventually the ICC mediated and facilitated new elections and a new constitution for the KCA which smoothed the transition over to Cricket Kenya formally. If the ICC suspended (but not demoted) ZC over misuse of funds, but set up a facility so that local Zimbabwean clubs could present their audited expenses to the facility and have those bills paid from ZC's share of ICC funding then this could enable local club personnel and cricketers who aren't corrupted to stay in the game so to speak and allow them to organize a rival body (let's call it "Cricket Zimbabwe")...or rather a pressure group instead of a rival body and call it the "Cricket Zimbabwe Committee" or "Cricket Reform Committee" with the aim to push for new elections in ZC and a new constitution which would wind up ZC and replace it with "Cricket Zimbabwe".

The problem is if you clean house...you're likely to get corrupt folks 90% of the time. What you don't understand is that Zimbabwe is inherently "unviable" as a cricketing nation. Like the USA. Lets look at each of the major cricketing nations and give a general summary of why they are where they are today.

England and Australia...deep rooted cultural tradition + 1st world economy + progressivistic value system (ie liberal western democratic values)

India, Pakistan, Bangladesh...mass popularity, massive player pools, the only sport they are good at leading to cricket being a source of immense pride overcomes the corruption in all 3 countries

Sri Lanka...same as above 3 countries but on a much smaller scale...out of the subcontinent, the most well organized and disciplined nation...highest human development index as well

Afghanistan...naturally gifted athletes...fueled almost solely by an unending passion for the game

New Zealand...1st world country + stable political atmosphere...small size means they will never be a powerhouse but all other factors present to make a perenially solid team

Ireland...basically the Associate version of NZ and with the same potential

West Indies...naturally gifted athletes, relative political stability, and economic wealth...long tradition of the game...still struggling due to infighting and general disinterest in the game

I don't really know what to make of South Africa, and we all have some idea of Zimbabwe. South Africa might be headed that way, but their relative economic and political stability means the worst SA will likely be is like the Windies.

Zimbabwe has almost nothing...they aren't wealthy, they don't have political stability, they don't have a large player pool, most of their talent plies their trade in other countries, and the population doesn't really seem to have much passion for the game to keep it going against all odds.

[Jemisi]

I don't dispute your estimation of an associate supporter's feelings about the waste in Zim, Kriterion.

My post wasn't designed to contradict you on that. Nor do I think the political shift is/will be easy. But I don't believe that Zim can more easily rebuild from the ground up if we are demoted. It isn't the eighties and the legacy of people with values that equate to good stewardship has shrunk considerably.

Changing the culture of waste and theft etc, will require both the opportunity of a clean house (that will likely need to be initiated from above in Zim) and a desire amongst key stakeholders ( people black, asian and white who actually care about the game) to actually do the work together of developing a new culture. In the event change occurs in a healthy way, on field we may still face disasters like this because of a weak base. You are right about that. But a healthier admin would be able to provide more stable pathways into the game for players and supporters.

I'd even be prepared to hand out some redundancies to get rid of the thieves - it can be a soft and gentle cleanout so long as some honest people are found as replacements.

[Kriterion_BD]

If anyone can clean house, it has to be mandated from the ICC. But will the ICC be able to monitor everything and will the ZC agree? I guess its easy to agree when you're pointing a gun at them (losing Test and full member status).

You know the popular saying "it only takes one bad apple to spoil the whole bunch?" The reason its true is that suppose a bunch of genuinely good people come into the ZC...when corruption is around, it becomes difficult for most people, even good people, to stay away because otherwise you'll be falling behind personally.

At this point, it will be hard to keep the clean admin clean for long given the climate. But if there are enough clean people left who also have the proper aptitude to run the game, how do we get them into the ZC?

I suppose we have no other choice but to see what unfolds. Either way, we'll find out exactly what happens in a few months.

[JHunter]

Even if Zimbabwe were to be demoted to associate membership, unless the personnel in ZC changed, then ZC would still misappropriate whatever funds are given by the ICC.

Better a couple hundred grand than millions.

That's rather negative thinking Kriterion.

How about better zero than even a couple hundred grand? the ICC can get zero misappropriations from ZC by simply suspending the board and halting all funding rather than demoting them.

Allowing a demoted ZC to continue siphoning off thousands is no better morally than allowing them to siphon off millions and only sets bad precedents. It also does zilch to actually help the cricketers, fans and staff that ZC have been shafting and continue to shaft.

[CrimsonAvenger]

See this if you want to know Dirk Viljoen's views on the horrific state of Zim Cricket: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIqzMt0BhSk

#DoomAndGloom #DontShowThisToBRMT

[Googly]

It's what I said about who will actually bake the cake, isn't it?
Who will join, pay and maintain an actual cricket club? All stuff that angers Gargamel, but it's the truth. Maybe my view is more palatable when heard from someone else? Dirk shares my sentiments exactly. Who pays to play? Those are the guys who put in the hard yards.

[Googly]

My beef is that everyone forgets what it took to get us here. Hard work, dedication and love of the sport, all dismantled by guys who didn't realize the blood sweat and tears that were shed, just a sense of entitlement because people were disenfranchised (and wrongly) for so long. It turns out it's been beyond everyone to keep the show on the road after all the hard yards have been done before. If/when we lose our membership it's gone forever, there's no one willing or able to bake any more cakes. I would predict a 90% drop in registered senior players the day we lose membership.