Test Bowling Options ( Seamers )

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pariah
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Re: Test Bowling Options ( Seamers )

Post by pariah » Mon Aug 14, 2017 10:00 am

My two cents....

If for whatever mad or sound reason Panyangara is unavailable, then Chatara and Shingi are head-and-shoulders above the rest. Logically, and statistically, it makes no sense to consider anyone ahead of these two - even if Vitori was rehabilitated. Sure, England could argue they can come up with a better par than Jimmy and Broad, but they never go into that discussioin because they know you don't mess with your two best seamers. Trent and Boult haven't exaclty set the world alight, and I'm pretty sure they could have get other bowlers and give them time (like guys suggesting Mumba, Ngarava, Nyauchi and co), but to why? The Proteas have suffered at times because there was simply a reluctance to admit that Philander and Steyn were the best two, and Morkel the 3rd one to be challenged. As a result, plenty seamers lost out along the way with Morkel being mistakenly retained. The same is and has been happening in ZIM - no pecking order, no respect for class, too much faith in potentials. This

I like the fact that Neville Madziva was mentioned, because along with Luke Jongwe, they really should be the two considered for that 3rd spot. Zimbabwe need that third seamer to be able to hold and bat - be a capable number 8/9, sometimes 7. Too much is being invested in Tiripano for the wrong reasons. This situation is like New Zealand picking Wagner ahead of Bracewell as the 3rd seamer, because Wagner has shown some resilience with the bat. As both bowler and batsman, Bracewell is younger and has far more potential with bat and ball. For what it's worth, Shingi is actually a better batsman than Tiripano. England would pick Woakes as the 3rd seamer (ahead of Finn etc), not because of his batting, but because he is a very good bowler, and a proper batsman. But like Philander, they are genuine world class bowlers - Philander much more so and the best in SA now. Bowling ability comes first, and you must have experience to bowl Test cricket. Even Amir and Rabada have some very bad off days, while the senior more experienced rarely do.

FIRST CHOICE:
1.Panyangara
2.Chatara
3.Shingi

SECOND CHOICE:
1.Chatara
2.Shingi
3.Madziva/Jongwe

Mbhalati http://www.espncricinfo.com/southafrica ... 46526.html
Fojela http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/content/ ... 45206.html
Sadly, neither got a chance to put on a Proteas jersey but some will moan when green Andile&Ngidi do:cry:

pariah
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Re: Test Bowling Options ( Seamers )

Post by pariah » Mon Aug 14, 2017 10:34 am

jaybro we had this discussion a few times across a number of threads, and whether you realise it or not, you disagreed a lot over there, but have basically taken all those stats and points I made and dumped them in this thread. However, you've done so with your recurring argument against certain players - they are old, unfit, discipline issues. I appreciate that people are embracing stats, but these guys are not old like Trent Johnston/Chris Martin. They're still playing and doing well.

For instance, when Craig Ervine is unfit we know the whole story and get medical reports in local and international news sites. If Chatara and Panyangara are truly unfit why don't we get the same. For ill discipline we again get reports and updates. Not the same with Shingi, Jongwe and Chisoro.

An old and semi-fit Gary was still being picked for Zimbabwe when he was as old as these guys, but generally, his age wasn't discussed or questioned. There is a thread and several of them about a 35 year old Sean Ervine who's just had one of his weaker domestic seasons, but many here would welcome his return even though he might potentially be a flop, just as Grant Flower was - in domestic and internationals - when he returned to Zimbabwe and rather decided to be a coach instead of risk it. An old, inexperienced and very average Ryan Butterworth was considered, again when he was about the same age as guys like Mpofu, Panyangara, Shingi, Chinouya and Tiripano. Yet all of have/had more more experience and pedigree.

I think we should cut out pointing to issues like age, health-fitness, and ill-discipline because as I proved, most of it is just mere specualtion. If it was sound then it would have been adequately reported as with the others. What is far more likely is that these guys are simply being ignored for selection and the problem is selectors not them. Otherwise, all of them still have 2-3 seasons at the top, and in that time can do better than the challengers. Mpofu and Tiripano are clearly 3rd rate seamers, and if the Selectors-Coach-Captain had Panyngara/Chatara/Shingi, they would have bowled in Sri Lanka and been successful -and been trusted with overs. Even Vitori woul dhave struggled in comparison to them.
jaybro wrote:
Mon Aug 14, 2017 1:33 am
Christopher Mpofu: Bobby always seems to find himself around the side despite having a poor test record ( 12 matches 25 wickets @ 48 ) and in comparison to his peers a poor first class average of 31.5.
Graeme Cremer has taken 46 wickets from 16 matches, but he averages 48 and has a strike-rate of 75.
Nathan Waller: A genuine allrounder who is equal at both batting and bowling yet hasn't quite set the world alight at either Waller has been in and around the national team for the last 3 -4 series but is yet to debut. His first class bowling figures show a great average of 23 but with only 51 wickets in 26 matches shows he's not quite a front line bowler. His efforts in last years Logan Cup show an average of 10 and strike rate of 20 !!!! which proves he's a decent bowler, his batting can be destructive at times and he could fit the role as a No.8 batsman and bowl first change. At 25 years old time is still on his side and he could be selected if guys like Chatara and Tinashe aren't fit, likely in a battle with Tiripano and Shingi for the third seamer role.
I've always liked Nathan Waller. But in all honesty he shouldn't be anywhere near the Test team, and he is not an allrounder.
Neville Madziva: A decent allrounder in Logan Cup cricket with a batting avergae of 28 and his bowling under 23 Madziva should be in and around the conversation, but he seems to have fallen out of favour and didn't quite take his chances in the A Team cricket he played earlier this year. A poor Logan Cup season also has dropped him down the pecking order and he seems now to considered only a limited overs cricketer. Still has time on his side he's unlikely to get a call up but will be targeting a big domestic season to get back in the reckoning, he could fill a similar role to that of Tiripano batting and bowling.
This boy has got talent and he believes in himself. He will produce and he always backs himself at the highest level.

Mbhalati http://www.espncricinfo.com/southafrica ... 46526.html
Fojela http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/content/ ... 45206.html
Sadly, neither got a chance to put on a Proteas jersey but some will moan when green Andile&Ngidi do:cry:

pariah
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Re: Test Bowling Options ( Seamers )

Post by pariah » Mon Aug 14, 2017 10:54 am

ZIMDOGGY wrote:
Mon Aug 14, 2017 4:39 am
To me, al full strength it has to be chatara and mumba, remembering Vitori and Jarvis unavailable
Again, we're talking Test cricket. Surely Mumba's struggles against Sri Lanka at Harare in Zimbabwe were there for all to see. He looked nowhere near Shingi's class or Test material for that matter. Plus Mpofu and Tiripano did try and tighten things for him to strike freely. 9 months later I seriously doubt he has improved. Based on what?

I've rarely seen fast bowlers waste the new ball as badly as he did. On that display he's more likely a Blessing Mawhire than a future Chatara. He's still just 22, but at best he's a 3rd seamer - not 1st and 2nd.

Against West Indies, Zimbabwe genuinely have a chance. It would be very very very bad to even consider guys like Mumba, Mpofu, Chinouya, Nyauchi, Tiripano, Nathan. Why do it?

Pick Panyangara, Chatara and Shingi, then you'll have a Test match!

Pick those others, then(like an average SL side) expect 500 runs from West Indies and multiple centurions. Brathwaite can back himself to get a double ton, and a few of those new guys in the middle order will be looking forward scoring heavily. You don't play with Test cricket. Especially bowling attacks.

Mbhalati http://www.espncricinfo.com/southafrica ... 46526.html
Fojela http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/content/ ... 45206.html
Sadly, neither got a chance to put on a Proteas jersey but some will moan when green Andile&Ngidi do:cry:

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eugene
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Re: Test Bowling Options ( Seamers )

Post by eugene » Mon Aug 14, 2017 2:13 pm

Shingi has always delivered for Zimbabwe, I have no idea why his career is so sporadic. Shingi is a wicket-taker, something that Tiripano isn't.
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CrimsonAvenger
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Re: Test Bowling Options ( Seamers )

Post by CrimsonAvenger » Mon Aug 14, 2017 2:23 pm

eugene wrote:
Mon Aug 14, 2017 2:13 pm
Shingi has always delivered for Zimbabwe, I have no idea why his career is so sporadic. Shingi is a wicket-taker, something that Tiripano isn't.
+1. May be at times expensive in shorter formats, but has always been amongst the wickets even then. And the longer format suit his bowling the best.

And he has contributed with the bat too, whenever possible.

pariah
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Re: Test Bowling Options ( Seamers )

Post by pariah » Mon Aug 14, 2017 3:03 pm

eugene wrote:
Mon Aug 14, 2017 2:13 pm
Shingi has always delivered for Zimbabwe, I have no idea why his career is so sporadic. Shingi is a wicket-taker, something that Tiripano isn't.
CrimsonAvenger wrote:
Mon Aug 14, 2017 2:23 pm
+1. May be at times expensive in shorter formats, but has always been amongst the wickets even then. And the longer format suit his bowling the best.

And he has contributed with the bat too, whenever possible.
Internal politics and tribalism. :lol:

Anyway, often times Australia had faster and more threatening options than Peter Siddle, but they didn't drop him. If zim fans were Australian selectors, they would've dropped Siddle and picked Coulter-Nile. Fans here as equal to blame about Shingi ill-treatment. No? :D

Mbhalati http://www.espncricinfo.com/southafrica ... 46526.html
Fojela http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/content/ ... 45206.html
Sadly, neither got a chance to put on a Proteas jersey but some will moan when green Andile&Ngidi do:cry:

Kriterion_BD
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Re: Test Bowling Options ( Seamers )

Post by Kriterion_BD » Mon Aug 14, 2017 8:43 pm

shingi truly is unlucky...feel for the guy. definitely my favorite ZIM bowler.
Truth is on the side of the oppressed; its against the oppressor. Time is on the side of the oppressed; its against the oppressor. You don't need anything else.
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Kriterion_BD
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Re: Test Bowling Options ( Seamers )

Post by Kriterion_BD » Mon Aug 14, 2017 10:11 pm

jaybro wrote:
Mon Aug 14, 2017 8:43 am
Kriterion_BD wrote:
Mon Aug 14, 2017 6:33 am
Tristan Holme reported that one of either Taylor or Jarvis is very likely to come back, possibly both.

I reckon we will know by the end of September as thats when the county season ends.
I think BRMT will come back with the lure of playing a ICC tournament at home being to great for him to resist. Whilst KJ is less likely he's probably looking for another County gig with his limited chances at Lancs .....
Can you elaborate on KJ at Lancs? I thought he was tearing it up except his first season back in 2013/14...he even got a new contract last year. Taylor on the other hand has been up and down and at his age Notts may invest ina younger guy. plus Brexit. but any details on KJ???
Truth is on the side of the oppressed; its against the oppressor. Time is on the side of the oppressed; its against the oppressor. You don't need anything else.
[Malcolm X]

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Re: Test Bowling Options ( Seamers )

Post by jaybro » Mon Aug 14, 2017 10:24 pm

Kriterion_BD wrote:
Mon Aug 14, 2017 10:11 pm
jaybro wrote:
Mon Aug 14, 2017 8:43 am
Kriterion_BD wrote:
Mon Aug 14, 2017 6:33 am
Tristan Holme reported that one of either Taylor or Jarvis is very likely to come back, possibly both.

I reckon we will know by the end of September as thats when the county season ends.
I think BRMT will come back with the lure of playing a ICC tournament at home being to great for him to resist. Whilst KJ is less likely he's probably looking for another County gig with his limited chances at Lancs .....
Can you elaborate on KJ at Lancs? I thought he was tearing it up except his first season back in 2013/14...he even got a new contract last year. Taylor on the other hand has been up and down and at his age Notts may invest ina younger guy. plus Brexit. but any details on KJ???
They've got alot of good seam bowlers and he hasn't played as many games this season.

Still taken 20 wickets @ 23

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/county-ch ... tournament
1.G.Flower 2.B.Taylor 3.M.Goodwin 4.A.Flower 5.D.Houghton 6.N.Johnson 7.T.Taibu 8.P.Strang 9.H.Streak 10.R.Price 11.H.Olonga 12.A.Campbell

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jaybro
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Re: Test Bowling Options ( Seamers )

Post by jaybro » Mon Aug 14, 2017 10:49 pm

pariah wrote:
Mon Aug 14, 2017 10:34 am
jaybro we had this discussion a few times across a number of threads, and whether you realise it or not, you disagreed a lot over there, but have basically taken all those stats and points I made and dumped them in this thread. However, you've done so with your recurring argument against certain players - they are old, unfit, discipline issues. I appreciate that people are embracing stats, but these guys are not old like Trent Johnston/Chris Martin. They're still playing and doing well.

For instance, when Craig Ervine is unfit we know the whole story and get medical reports in local and international news sites. If Chatara and Panyangara are truly unfit why don't we get the same. For ill discipline we again get reports and updates. Not the same with Shingi, Jongwe and Chisoro.

An old and semi-fit Gary was still being picked for Zimbabwe when he was as old as these guys, but generally, his age wasn't discussed or questioned. There is a thread and several of them about a 35 year old Sean Ervine who's just had one of his weaker domestic seasons, but many here would welcome his return even though he might potentially be a flop, just as Grant Flower was - in domestic and internationals - when he returned to Zimbabwe and rather decided to be a coach instead of risk it. An old, inexperienced and very average Ryan Butterworth was considered, again when he was about the same age as guys like Mpofu, Panyangara, Shingi, Chinouya and Tiripano. Yet all of have/had more more experience and pedigree.

I think we should cut out pointing to issues like age, health-fitness, and ill-discipline because as I proved, most of it is just mere specualtion. If it was sound then it would have been adequately reported as with the others. What is far more likely is that these guys are simply being ignored for selection and the problem is selectors not them. Otherwise, all of them still have 2-3 seasons at the top, and in that time can do better than the challengers. Mpofu and Tiripano are clearly 3rd rate seamers, and if the Selectors-Coach-Captain had Panyngara/Chatara/Shingi, they would have bowled in Sri Lanka and been successful -and been trusted with overs. Even Vitori woul dhave struggled in comparison to them.
jaybro wrote:
Mon Aug 14, 2017 1:33 am
Christopher Mpofu: Bobby always seems to find himself around the side despite having a poor test record ( 12 matches 25 wickets @ 48 ) and in comparison to his peers a poor first class average of 31.5.
Graeme Cremer has taken 46 wickets from 16 matches, but he averages 48 and has a strike-rate of 75.
Nathan Waller: A genuine allrounder who is equal at both batting and bowling yet hasn't quite set the world alight at either Waller has been in and around the national team for the last 3 -4 series but is yet to debut. His first class bowling figures show a great average of 23 but with only 51 wickets in 26 matches shows he's not quite a front line bowler. His efforts in last years Logan Cup show an average of 10 and strike rate of 20 !!!! which proves he's a decent bowler, his batting can be destructive at times and he could fit the role as a No.8 batsman and bowl first change. At 25 years old time is still on his side and he could be selected if guys like Chatara and Tinashe aren't fit, likely in a battle with Tiripano and Shingi for the third seamer role.
I've always liked Nathan Waller. But in all honesty he shouldn't be anywhere near the Test team, and he is not an allrounder.
Neville Madziva: A decent allrounder in Logan Cup cricket with a batting avergae of 28 and his bowling under 23 Madziva should be in and around the conversation, but he seems to have fallen out of favour and didn't quite take his chances in the A Team cricket he played earlier this year. A poor Logan Cup season also has dropped him down the pecking order and he seems now to considered only a limited overs cricketer. Still has time on his side he's unlikely to get a call up but will be targeting a big domestic season to get back in the reckoning, he could fill a similar role to that of Tiripano batting and bowling.
This boy has got talent and he believes in himself. He will produce and he always backs himself at the highest level.
Firstly regarding the age issue it's common knowledge that batsman get better with age whilst fast bowlers tend to get slower and more injury prone ( it's things like this which make me question your cricketing knowledge ). Now of course there are fast bowlers who have bowled into their mid 30's and gotten better but it's a rarity, it's more common for fast bowlers to drop pace and start to pick up injuries like Dale Steyn has done.

Batsman don't really hit their peak until they're 30 that's why you won't see me say we should drop Hami, Willy or Waller because they're old because they're right in their sweet spot for batting. Sean Ervine is pretty old but he could still add value with the bat and if he were to return it would be just a short term thing to try and qualify for the WC and then possibly play in it.

Also in my posts I only suggested that the selectors might pass on Tinashe, Chinouya & Shingi due to their age because it is a relevant point, there's a difference between suggesting a relevant point and forcing it down their throat like you do Hhm. This is the same when I referred to the fitness of Chatara and the discipline of Jongwe common knowledge which has been reported and once again I only suggested this may be an issue.

If you bothered to read my whole post you would have seen that I said 'If Tinashe and Chatara were fit they would be the first 2 bowlers picked'

Now I really liked how you questioned what i said about Mpofu :lol: You just can't help yourself you must attack a white player at any possible chance and since there are no white seam bowlers in the test side you had to go after the spinner :lol:

Context and reference my friend and you had both wrong :lol: we're comparing seam bowlers so why would you compare Mpofu to Cremer? It's pretty standard to have spin bowler in your attack so we will dissect our spin bowling options later on and I will discuss Cremer's poor Test record but comparing Mpofu to Cremer is pointless as they're not fighting for the same position, I've compared Mpofu and his poor test & first class record to the other fast bowlers with superior stats. It's also fairly common for spinners to have a higher average than seamers plus Cremer's batting adds value.
1.G.Flower 2.B.Taylor 3.M.Goodwin 4.A.Flower 5.D.Houghton 6.N.Johnson 7.T.Taibu 8.P.Strang 9.H.Streak 10.R.Price 11.H.Olonga 12.A.Campbell

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