[Series Thread] Tracking Zimbos in Shpageeza League

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CrimsonAvenger
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Re: [Series Thread] Tracking Zimbos in Shpageeza League

Post by CrimsonAvenger »

pariah wrote:
Sat Sep 23, 2017 3:07 pm
CrimsonAvenger wrote:
Sat Sep 23, 2017 8:04 am
Cremer was never in the discussion. And despite being a leg spin fanatic myself, I have been one of the biggest critics of Cremer here. This comparison, however, was between Panyangara and Chatara. Stick to that.

Address points 3 and 4 with substance if possible.
CrimsonAvenger wrote:
Sat Sep 23, 2017 3:56 am
3. How can one explain Panyangara's horrors in ODIs and say he is good in tests and T20s but not in ODIs. This is very arbitrary. That just means his (whatever) T20 success could just be fluke. I'm not implying that, but it can be explained that way too. Of course the captains were foolish to keep trusting him at the death, but where was his growth in all this? He never learnt to become a better bowler than what he already was.

4. Chatara is young, learning, and has a comparable record across formats, which are also on the up. Good enough indications to bet on Chatara than Panyangara for me.
I did address it. Consider Cremer's mention as not accident. I was highlighting the challenges of opening. Both Chatara and TP do it, so their economy rate should be viewed in that light.

No way I'm using Tests & ODIs to rate a player from an ODI perspective.

Should Panyangara have grown? Maybe mayb not. But I'll encourage you to study Cameron Cuffy.
The point is about proving Panyangara is way better than Chatara in T20s / shorter formats as you stated earlier, which does not even seem to require stats according to you. Not Cremer, not Cameron Cuffy. Try again.
pariah wrote:
Sat Sep 23, 2017 3:07 pm
No way I'm using Tests & ODIs to rate a player from an ODI perspective.
What is this? The question is, given both T20s and ODIs are played with white ball, both are shorter formats, how can someone be so significantly bad in one compared to other, if the other can't be explained as fluke? What are the other explanations?
pariah wrote:
Sat Sep 23, 2017 3:07 pm
Should Panyangara have grown? Maybe mayb not.
Well, that at least means he has not grown even in your opinion. Why would one want to keep selecting a guy who does not want to learn new tricks of trade when there are better options like Chatara? I don't know.

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Re: [Series Thread] Tracking Zimbos in Shpageeza League

Post by pariah »

You're full of tricks Crimson, but at least I get what you're trying to do.

At the end of the day this is T20, and Panyangara is a superior seamer to Chatara in that format by any measure you want to apply sr, wkts, avg, and marginally eco! If the choice was on eseamer for ZIM's T20 side I'd pick TP ahead of anyone else.

Tinashe is an enigma in ODIs, but as we've both admitted, captains haven't used him properly. I shudder to think what he would have done to NED and SCO in those conditions.

Overall, what TP has is that extra skillset which sets him apart from Chatara. Broad needs to be in a zone to be destructive, and Chatara is like that. Panyngara, like Jimmy, does not. It comes naturally.

You are using a lot of permutations to try and arrive at the conclusion that Chatara is superior to Panyangara, while ignoring Panynagara's superiority in two formats, as well as first spells with the ball in ODIs. The ONLY contest between them is in latter ODI spells, so surely any questions should center around that.

You've watche both of them bowl together across formats, and how you failed to see the clear difference in class between them is beyond me.

To be fair, Chatara has actually struggled without Panyangara. In fact, sides are thumping Zimbabwe so much that unless a spinner has somehow intervened, fans already fear the worst in each LOI Zimbabwe plays lately. This was almost never the case when Panyangara was in the side. There was still belief after the first 10-12 overs. Not the case aymore, despite Chatara being there. Ask yourself why! ;)

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Re: [Series Thread] Tracking Zimbos in Shpageeza League

Post by Conant »

pariah wrote:
Sun Sep 17, 2017 4:37 pm
Conant wrote:
Sun Sep 17, 2017 3:37 pm
His strike rate is still poor, hhm. At 104, the longer he bats the more to the detriment of his team.

I have seen Chris Gayle lose matches for his team by making 40 of 40 balls.

And, even if the pitches are poor as somebody here said, compare and contrast Vusi's strike rates with those that follow him amongst the top run scorer's charts.
Fair enough Conant, and noted.

To be fair his side have only lost one of the 5 matches he's played in. He's clearly playing the Gambhir/Amla role, and doing it very well. Something to work from.

Even guys like Dhawan, Tamim and Dilshan who one would have expected to have Gayle-Elton like Strike Rates are actually rather restricted in their approach. It's not easy for openers.

For me I've always though Mahela Jayawardene is the perfect example for players who can't go crazy like Glenn Maxwell. He's classy, effortless yet scores as briskly as an Aaron Finch.

But generally Zimbabwe only have Elton and Hami as the batsmen who can really take it to the very best bowlers in the world. Of late Malcolm has shown signs but only against the weak opposition. Maybe Mire might have something to say the more he's exposed, but until then, ZIM still only have 2 suited batsmen in this format so can't afford to be too picky in that case. In any event, Vusi has been Zimbabwe's most prolific T20I batsmen after Hami over the last 5 years. Strangely Maruma hasn't gotten the chances he deserves despite proving his hitting ability over a number of seasons, but I suspect he will get a call up soon.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine ... pe=batting
ZimT20BattingLast5Years.png


Hami, Vusi, Taylor(wk), Mire, Chigumbura, Malcolm, Maruma, Madziva, Chisoro, Panyangara, Cremer(c) - Would have included Williams, but he can't/won't open just like BT(who still has to bat higher), and the big hitters(of which Sean is not) follow.
I thought Vusi played exceeding well early this year in that T20 series we hosted India, and was was clearly our best batsman in those three matches. Scored briskly too. He's a confidence player and selectors should have allowed him to carry on his form into the ODIs, as they have done repeatedly with Malcom Waller. Strangely, he wasn't included and I don't see any way back for him now.

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Re: [Series Thread] Tracking Zimbos in Shpageeza League

Post by pariah »

Conant wrote:
Sun Sep 24, 2017 2:16 pm
I thought Vusi played exceeding well early this year in that T20 series we hosted India, and was was clearly our best batsman in those three matches. Scored briskly too. He's also a confidence player and selectors should have allowed him to carry on his form into the ODIs, as they have done repeatedly with Malcom Waller. Strangely, they dropped him and I don't see any way back for him now.
This seems to be a deliberate strategy from certain elements within ZC.

At the end of the day I'm not really bothered because the results are there for all to see. Zimbabwe has been reduced to everyone's punching bag. Even players like Jongwe have had enough.

As teenagers and youngsters against top full strength sides away, the likes of Vusi, Matsi and Panyangara were never as hopeless as Burl, Moor and Mumba have been against extremely average sides and Associates, yet somehow this forum expects better perfromances, while seasoned coaches/selectors like Streak and Taibu continue to pick them. That's why Moor and Malcolm will continue to be there. How Raza even survived such a slump has to go down in history in Zimbabwe.

The forum has been reduced to defending the performances of players like Sean and Cremer against the likes AFG, NED and SL side that's either corrupt to the core or can't play to save itself at the moment. I don't think ZIM cricekt fans have any pride left in them.

Just take a look at the squad named for Netherlands. How on earth Moore and Burl are in is beyond me. No one seems to know precisely what Williams' role or purpose in the team is anymore, likewise with number 8 Malcolm. Crazy to pick Chakabva when Hami, Mire and Musakanda have secured 1-3. No one can explain why Mpofu and Tiripano are in there but Panyangara is not. Yet a few weeks after that it's host WI then a one-off against SA. The planning and selection is terrible I tell. It's absolute madness!

The question is simple. Where on earth are Wellington Masakadza and Tendai Chisoro? The answer - "Williams and Raza are sufficient" apparently.

This is preciesly what happens when a team imagines the loss of Utseya was not a huge gap to fill. This is what happens when you don't appreciate a player and understate what he did to help Zimbabwe win. You can never replace Utseya with Raza+Sean, plus Cremer has never at any point been a sole lead spinner at any point in his career. Even at Mid West Rhinos he has always had help, and more often than not, they outbowled him in all formats.

Roelof van der Merwe the Saffer/Dutchman has more batting and bowling talent on his body than Sean, Cremer, Raza and Malcolm combined.

That Shane Snater naturally feels he has long overtaken Burl, Moor, Ngarava etc. You need players like Elton Chigumbura to smash him back to his senses, not players who have never achieved anything against any decent side. But even Elton is ignored.

That's the sad thing about your statement that there is no way back for players like Vusi. Precisely because Zimbabwe will continue to regress badly, and everyone will continue to expect better from the the same flopping players.

Once upon a time Mutumbami and Maruma used to be attacked by fans for the very kind of performances that seemingly make certain players automatic picks. What happened ZCF?

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Re: [Series Thread] Tracking Zimbos in Shpageeza League

Post by eugene »

pariah wrote:
Sat Sep 23, 2017 7:06 am
CrimsonAvenger wrote:
Sat Sep 23, 2017 3:56 am
1.We don't play enough T20Is regularly to glean much from the data in the first place

2.I would look at a combination of strike rate and economy rate in ODIs (Panyangara is a disaster there) and strike rate in tests. Seems more sensible to look at this data that way.

3. That just means his (whatever) T20 success could just be fluke. I'm not implying that, but it can be explained that way too.
Some of the lengths some guys go to, and the tricks resorted to just to reject the obvious, are disturbing at times.

So players' achievements shoul dnot matter because they didn;t have access to games??? :? There are countless players in world cricket right now with those very characteristics for obvious reasons, yet you want to use a 100 over match and a 450 over match to analyse a 40 over match with regards to a particular player??? :? Bangladesh dropped a few players who did well for them in the Asia T20 Cup - i.e. so called "flukes". Their T20 side hasn't grown since has it??? :?

T20I STATS FOR ZIMBABWE BOWLERS

Code: Select all

PLAYER		ROLE			MAT	WKT	AVG	ECO	SR
Panyangara	Opening/Death		14	20	19.9	7.88	15.1
Cremer		Strictly Middle Overs	27	33	18.84	6.98	16.1
Chisoro		Opening/Death		7	10	17.30	6.17	16.8
Tiripano	Opening/Death		8	10	21.8	7.6	17.2
Wellington	Opening/Death		7	8	24.62	7.88	18.7
Chatara		Opening/Death		11	11	28	7.7	21.8
Williams	Strictly Middle Overs	24	17	31.29	7.18	26.1
Raza		Opening/Middle Overs	26	9	31.33	8.05	23.3
Never underestimate how well a bowler does with the new ball. Wait until the day Cremer takes that new ball in T20Is to appreciate just how tough it is. Perhaps then it won;t be so easy to discredit players based on feelings despite all manner of evidence on the contrary.

Economy rate matters much more in T20s than strike rate. If you are not taking wickets, you are choking the batsmen who might throw their wickets away at the other end / to other bowlers. It is like an assist in other sports. Invaluable.
:D I'm so loving this point. It has history! Lots of history and you've invoked it for that particular player. Where is BRM Admin? He'll remember this. :lol:
Those bowling stats show Panyangara to be barely preferable to Tiripano.
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jaybro
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Re: [Series Thread] Tracking Zimbos in Shpageeza League

Post by jaybro »

pariah wrote:[/b]me=1506264329 user_id=25460]


The question is simple. Where on earth are Wellington Masakadza and Tendai Chisoro? The answer - "Williams and Raza are sufficient" apparently.

This is preciesly what happens when a team imagines the loss of Utseya was not a huge gap to fill. This is what happens when you don't appreciate a player and understate what he did to help Zimbabwe win. You can never replace Utseya with Raza+Sean, plus Cremer has never at any point been a sole lead spinner at any point in his career. Even at Mid West Rhinos he has always had help, and more often than not, they outbowled him in all formats.
Fact No.1 Utseya is a chucker and a cheat stop putting him in such high regard.

Fact No.2 I know you love your espncricinfo stats so here's a table for you Hhm comparing Zimbabwe spinners or more to the point Utseya to Wiiliams and Raza since you said those two combined could never replace Utseya. A closer look at the actual stats with no filters and counting HOME-AWAY-NEUTEAL/b] venues.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine ... pe=bowling

This shows Raza is actually a Superior bowler with an average of 43.54 compared to Utseya's 46.9 whilst Raza's Strike rate of 53.4 is FAR SUPERIOR to Utseya's 64.4, even Williams has a better strike rate than Utseya with 61.2.

Utseya does have the better economy but not by much, 4.36 compared to 4.88 for Raza and 4.9 for Williams.

Fact No.3 It's not fair to compare Utseya to Cremer whos average is 16 runs fewer and his strike rate was 23 deliveries better !!!! When you compare economy it shows Utseya is marginally ahead 4.36 to 4.65, pretty good for Cremer taking into consideration he is an attacking leg spinner and Utseya was primarily a defensive offie.

Anyways this proves your claim "You can never replace Utseya with Raza+Sean, plus Cremer has never at any point been a sole lead spinner at any point in his career" to be false and un-supported

As Always Stats=Facts
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CrimsonAvenger
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Re: [Series Thread] Tracking Zimbos in Shpageeza League

Post by CrimsonAvenger »

A mini interview with Burl about playing in this league: https://battingwithbimal.com/2017/09/27 ... e-bombing/

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Re: [Series Thread] Tracking Zimbos in Shpageeza League

Post by Mr Twig »

Looks like only Taylor and Chatara are playing this year.

Edit: Campbell is over there as well. Picked up 2 wickets today :)

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Re: [Series Thread] Tracking Zimbos in Shpageeza League

Post by chesterton »

Who is Campbell?

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Re: [Series Thread] Tracking Zimbos in Shpageeza League

Post by Mr Twig »

Last edited by Mr Twig on Sat Oct 12, 2019 5:37 am, edited 3 times in total.

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