[Series Thread] Tracking Zimbos in Shpageeza League

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pariah
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Re: [Series Thread] Tracking Zimbos in Shpageeza League

Post by pariah »

TapsC wrote:
Fri Sep 22, 2017 11:23 am
for me personally Ervine Williams Burl Vusi and Jarvis and PJ wouldn't make my t20 team right now.

I would have:
Hami
Mire
Tari
Taylor(wk)
Raza
Elton
Waller
Madziva
Chisoro
Cremer
Chatara
It's a matter of opinion. I wouldn't be put of by that XI.

A huge concern woul dobviously be the order. It's not designed to be a threat. Elton at 6 and Waller at 7 it a lot of overs lost.

I've already shared it here https://www.zimcricketforums.com/viewto ... 78#p109478. But right now I think I'll go with:
Hami, Vusi, Taylor(wk), Elton, Waller, Mire, Maruma, Madziva, Chisoro, Panyangara, Cremer(c)/Wellington

For me, in ZIM no seamer is at Tinashe's level for this format. Not even Chatara. And he's prove it may times in the T20s we've watched. Sometimes I wonder if we watch the same matches as fans. I've shielded Mire a bit, so he'll take on th echange bowlers, and the returning frontline bowlers.

Another option is to drop Vusi, make Taylor open with Hami and bring in Nathan Waller at 7 after Maruma:
Hami, Taylor(wk), Elton, Waller, Mire, Maruma, Moor, Madziva, Chisoro, Panyangara, Cremer(c)/Wellington There's plenty of nasty runs in that XI. I'd pay a lot to watch them go crazy. Only player who can't clear the ropes is Cremer in that lineup. He's Test like SR is very bad, but Wellington won't be much of an upgrade.

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CrimsonAvenger
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Re: [Series Thread] Tracking Zimbos in Shpageeza League

Post by CrimsonAvenger »

pariah wrote:
Fri Sep 22, 2017 3:33 pm
For me, in ZIM no seamer is at Tinashe's level for this format. Not even Chatara. And he's prove it may times in the T20s we've watched. Sometimes I wonder if we watch the same matches as fans.
Would be heavily indebted if there is a statistical analysis done to show that Panyangara is better in T20s / shorter formats than Chatara.

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Re: [Series Thread] Tracking Zimbos in Shpageeza League

Post by pariah »

CrimsonAvenger wrote:
Fri Sep 22, 2017 3:43 pm
pariah wrote:
Fri Sep 22, 2017 3:33 pm
For me, in ZIM no seamer is at Tinashe's level for this format. Not even Chatara. And he's prove it may times in the T20s we've watched. Sometimes I wonder if we watch the same matches as fans.
Would be heavily indebted if there is a statistical analysis done to show that Panyangara is better in T20s / shorter formats than Chatara.
But we've discussed that recently Crimson?

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine ... pe=bowling

EDIT: In fact, I don't think anyone in Zimbabwe right now has a T20I Strike Rate that matches Panyangara. I'll try and expand that to all international bowlers since January 2013. Tinashe is quite simply unplayable with the new ball, whatever the format. I've seen a number of top top batsmen decline the challenge and let him bowl out or be rremoved from the attack.

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Re: [Series Thread] Tracking Zimbos in Shpageeza League

Post by pariah »

Since January 2013, among bowlers who have bowled more than 300 balls, from the 10 Full Members, Tinahse Panyangara is number 7 in terms of Strike Rate. Cremer completes the top 10.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine ... pe=bowling


To be quite honest, he's better than a whole host of top seamers! :D

Once again, I question the need for stats in certain instances. I ask again, don;t we watch the exact same matches. Don't we see the same players struggle against Tinashe? :?

This reminds me of a time when batsmen used to underestimate Tsotsobe, and the crowd would be surprised when he routinely outbowled Steyn and Morkel. The same way we acknowledge guys like Zadran and Hamza, I think ZImbabweans should acknowledge their own. If Panyangara was English I think he would be in their T20 XI. Imagine him in those conditions - both Tests and T20s. Only downside in ODIs is he's a liability if not bowled out in the first 10 - why ZIM captains don't do that is a mystery. They get carried away when he leaks nothingin the first 5 overs (1/15, and forget his horrors of the last 5 overs.

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Re: [Series Thread] Tracking Zimbos in Shpageeza League

Post by pariah »

Looking at that list, I think it will be very easy for Chisoro to top it, and be a top 10 bowler in the world in T20s. That guy is a nightmare to get under and hit for 6. If he plays 3 Series, say ZIM host WI, SL and NZ, he'd really do some damage and possibly win Zimbabwe some games. Alongside Panyangara and Cremer, ZIM has quite a bowling unit in this format. And if you notice, ZIM has lost T20Is mostly because of batting not bowling. They partly explain why. Madziva has clever bowling too. He'll get you at least a wicket per match, and score enough runs to make up for what he leaks.

A bench of Chatara and Wellington is not bad either.

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CrimsonAvenger
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Re: [Series Thread] Tracking Zimbos in Shpageeza League

Post by CrimsonAvenger »

1. We don't play enough T20Is regularly to glean much from the data in the first place. I thought that is how the response whould have begun, not with the hilarious
pariah wrote:
Fri Sep 22, 2017 4:05 pm
Once again, I question the need for stats in certain instances
2. Economy rate matters much more in T20s than strike rate. If you are not taking wickets, you are choking the batsmen who might throw their wickets away at the other end / to other bowlers. It is like an assist in other sports. Invaluable. Also, I would look at a combination of strike rate and economy rate in ODIs (Panyangara is a disaster there) and strike rate in tests. Seems more sensible to look at this data that way.

3. How can one explain Panyangara's horrors in ODIs and say he is good in tests and T20s but not in ODIs. This is very arbitrary. That just means his (whatever) T20 success could just be fluke. I'm not implying that, but it can be explained that way too. Of course the captains were foolish to keep trusting him at the death, but where was his growth in all this? He never learnt to become a better bowler than what he already was.

4. Chatara is young, learning, and has a comparable record across formats, which are also on the up. Good enough indications to bet on Chatara than Panyangara for me.

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Re: [Series Thread] Tracking Zimbos in Shpageeza League

Post by pariah »

CrimsonAvenger wrote:
Sat Sep 23, 2017 3:56 am
1.We don't play enough T20Is regularly to glean much from the data in the first place

2.I would look at a combination of strike rate and economy rate in ODIs (Panyangara is a disaster there) and strike rate in tests. Seems more sensible to look at this data that way.

3. That just means his (whatever) T20 success could just be fluke. I'm not implying that, but it can be explained that way too.
Some of the lengths some guys go to, and the tricks resorted to just to reject the obvious, are disturbing at times.

So players' achievements shoul dnot matter because they didn;t have access to games??? :? There are countless players in world cricket right now with those very characteristics for obvious reasons, yet you want to use a 100 over match and a 450 over match to analyse a 40 over match with regards to a particular player??? :? Bangladesh dropped a few players who did well for them in the Asia T20 Cup - i.e. so called "flukes". Their T20 side hasn't grown since has it??? :?

T20I STATS FOR ZIMBABWE BOWLERS

Code: Select all

PLAYER		ROLE			MAT	WKT	AVG	ECO	SR
Panyangara	Opening/Death		14	20	19.9	7.88	15.1
Cremer		Strictly Middle Overs	27	33	18.84	6.98	16.1
Chisoro		Opening/Death		7	10	17.30	6.17	16.8
Tiripano	Opening/Death		8	10	21.8	7.6	17.2
Wellington	Opening/Death		7	8	24.62	7.88	18.7
Chatara		Opening/Death		11	11	28	7.7	21.8
Williams	Strictly Middle Overs	24	17	31.29	7.18	26.1
Raza		Opening/Middle Overs	26	9	31.33	8.05	23.3
Never underestimate how well a bowler does with the new ball. Wait until the day Cremer takes that new ball in T20Is to appreciate just how tough it is. Perhaps then it won;t be so easy to discredit players based on feelings despite all manner of evidence on the contrary.

Economy rate matters much more in T20s than strike rate. If you are not taking wickets, you are choking the batsmen who might throw their wickets away at the other end / to other bowlers. It is like an assist in other sports. Invaluable.
:D I'm so loving this point. It has history! Lots of history and you've invoked it for that particular player. Where is BRM Admin? He'll remember this. :lol:

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CrimsonAvenger
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Re: [Series Thread] Tracking Zimbos in Shpageeza League

Post by CrimsonAvenger »

Cremer was never in the discussion. And despite being a leg spin fanatic myself, I have been one of the biggest critics of Cremer here. This comparison, however, was between Panyangara and Chatara. Stick to that.

Address points 3 and 4 with substance if possible.
CrimsonAvenger wrote:
Sat Sep 23, 2017 3:56 am
3. How can one explain Panyangara's horrors in ODIs and say he is good in tests and T20s but not in ODIs. This is very arbitrary. That just means his (whatever) T20 success could just be fluke. I'm not implying that, but it can be explained that way too. Of course the captains were foolish to keep trusting him at the death, but where was his growth in all this? He never learnt to become a better bowler than what he already was.

4. Chatara is young, learning, and has a comparable record across formats, which are also on the up. Good enough indications to bet on Chatara than Panyangara for me.
pariah wrote:
Sat Sep 23, 2017 7:06 am
I'm so loving this point. It has history! Lots of history and you've invoked it for that particular player. Where is BRM Admin? He'll remember this.
I remember the "history" referred to here, but I'm saying this specifically in the context of T20s where it is of high impact.

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Re: [Series Thread] Tracking Zimbos in Shpageeza League

Post by pariah »

CrimsonAvenger wrote:
Sat Sep 23, 2017 8:04 am
Cremer was never in the discussion. And despite being a leg spin fanatic myself, I have been one of the biggest critics of Cremer here. This comparison, however, was between Panyangara and Chatara. Stick to that.

Address points 3 and 4 with substance if possible.
CrimsonAvenger wrote:
Sat Sep 23, 2017 3:56 am
3. How can one explain Panyangara's horrors in ODIs and say he is good in tests and T20s but not in ODIs. This is very arbitrary. That just means his (whatever) T20 success could just be fluke. I'm not implying that, but it can be explained that way too. Of course the captains were foolish to keep trusting him at the death, but where was his growth in all this? He never learnt to become a better bowler than what he already was.

4. Chatara is young, learning, and has a comparable record across formats, which are also on the up. Good enough indications to bet on Chatara than Panyangara for me.
I did address it. Consider Cremer's mention as not accident. I was highlighting the challenges of opening. Both Chatara and TP do it, so their economy rate should be viewed in that light.

No way I'm using Tests & ODIs to rate a player from an ODI perspective.

Should Panyangara have grown? Maybe mayb not. But I'll encourage you to study Cameron Cuffy.

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Re: [Series Thread] Tracking Zimbos in Shpageeza League

Post by Mueddie28 »

pariah wrote:
Fri Sep 22, 2017 3:33 pm
TapsC wrote:
Fri Sep 22, 2017 11:23 am
for me personally Ervine Williams Burl Vusi and Jarvis and PJ wouldn't make my t20 team right now.

I would have:
Hami
Mire
Tari. Is not experienced enough I would put Craig Ervines the 2016 Zimbabwe cricketer of the year

Taylor(wk)
Raza
Elton this man has bowled to justify his inclusion, doesn't play enough domestic cricket to judge his form SEAN Williams a true All Rounder in this spot

Waller
Madziva straight up replacement Mumba...while I would in Madziva in the final 15 squad he doesn't make in the starting X1
Chisoro
Cremer
Chatara
It's a matter of opinion. I wouldn't be put of by that XI.

A huge concern woul dobviously be the order. It's not designed to be a threat. Elton at 6 and Waller at 7 it a lot of overs lost.

I've already shared it here https://www.zimcricketforums.com/viewto ... 78#p109478. But right now I think I'll go with:
Hami, Vusi, Taylor(wk), Elton, Waller, Mire, Maruma, Madziva, Chisoro, Panyangara, Cremer(c)/Wellington

For me, in ZIM no seamer is at Tinashe's level for this format. Not even Chatara. And he's prove it may times in the T20s we've watched. Sometimes I wonder if we watch the same matches as fans. I've shielded Mire a bit, so he'll take on th echange bowlers, and the returning frontline bowlers.

Another option is to drop Vusi, make Taylor open with Hami and bring in Nathan Waller at 7 after Maruma:
Hami, Taylor(wk), Elton, Waller, Mire, Maruma, Moor, Madziva, Chisoro, Panyangara, Cremer(c)/Wellington There's plenty of nasty runs in that XI. I'd pay a lot to watch them go crazy. Only player who can't clear the ropes is Cremer in that lineup. He's Test like SR is very bad, but Wellington won't be much of an upgrade.

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