Surely you could have acknowledged that I was completely right?

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Kriterion_BD
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Re: Surely you could have acknowledged that I was completely right?

Post by Kriterion_BD » Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:44 am

ZIMDOGGY wrote:
Sun Nov 05, 2017 7:19 am
1- there is no way grabbing a Pussy and gloating is anywhere NEAR as bad as throwing rocks at a girl until her skull is broken and she dies.
I didn't say it was. Perhaps my English is not as good as yours, but what I said was pussy grabbers simply lack the authority to brag about how well they treat humans with pussies vis a vis the rock throwers. I am asking for enough honesty for the conservative to not pretend that they give a shit about a woman who is not their immediate relative. I understand they wouldn't kill a girl...great, but why expect a medal just for that?

How do people know its fake concern for women? Why prevent women from accessing reproductive healthcare? Oral contraceptives have many medical indications from polycystic ovarian syndrome to dysmenorrhea (google it) and many other conditions. Its not just about murdering fetuses.

I'll give you another example.

Just this week I watched Sean Hannity talk about countries where gays were being thrown off buildings. Thats a fine point if you believe gays have the right to marry and if transgender people can use whichever bathroom they choose, and if you think the military shouldn't spend 1 million dollars on gender reassignment surgery but its OK to spend on 40 million for viagra for straight men.
2- you’ve sort of done exactly what I described, you’ve equated two issues that aren’t equitable, played one down, Showing my point that that kind of mindset has made it hard for Muslims who want to change this kind of thing to make progress because smarter Muslims like yourself won’t tackle the issue head on, would rather skirt the issues than face them.
Those who truly wish to aid the "smarter muslims", heres how to do it, and its up to them if they want to heed my advice or not.

Please do not demonize them for "not standing up" when muslims like the Peshmerga are on the front lines battling jihadists. Please do not support those politicians, organizations, ideologies, or movements that engage in demonization of these "smarter muslims" like Geert van Wilders, Marine Le Pen, and others. Anyone unable or unwilling to do this - its easy no action is needed - they cannot help, nor should their services be sought.

Demonization of the other - black, gay, or muslim - is the way of the feeble-minded.
Truth is on the side of the oppressed; its against the oppressor. Time is on the side of the oppressed; its against the oppressor. You don't need anything else.
[Malcolm X]

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CrimsonAvenger
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Re: Surely you could have acknowledged that I was completely right?

Post by CrimsonAvenger » Sun Nov 05, 2017 9:02 am

Just a couple of things before this thread gets locked out. The original post (and poster) probably deserved this derailment given how the other threads get derailed because of him :)

You can continue to talk about this article on this thread which was already present: http://www.zimcricketforums.com/viewtop ... =3&t=14248

And one has to commend the extent to which derailments are allowed these days here, given this was how a thread was closed down in the initial days of ZCF: Blast from the past: Possibly the first locked thread on ZCF: http://www.zimcricketforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=33

:D

Googly
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Re: Surely you could have acknowledged that I was completely right?

Post by Googly » Sun Nov 05, 2017 12:00 pm

Pariah you spent years arguing for and now you are vociferously against?
Anyone arguing against Jarvis’ and Taylor’s return don’t really understand cricket.
Anyone claiming their pay packages have strained the coffers hasn’t done the numbers, and choose to ignore where the bulk of the cash has really gone. It’s a great side show to distract everyone from the real issues and culprits.
If there’s an issue amongst the other players about those two getting more and that there should be some sort of equality then I’m afraid they don’t understand anything.
A downing of tools to protest this when a blind eye is turned about every other issue will prove with some finality what dumb manipulated sheep our players are. If that ever happens then I will walk away.
I’m curious why ZC can’t renege on this mystery 18m outstanding loan under our new leader?

Googly
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Re: Surely you could have acknowledged that I was completely right?

Post by Googly » Sun Nov 05, 2017 12:04 pm

Air Zimbabwe will become Zimbabwe Airways, why can’t ZC become ZCB and we walk from our “commitments” to our bosses private bank? :lol:

Kriterion_BD
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Re: Surely you could have acknowledged that I was completely right?

Post by Kriterion_BD » Sun Nov 05, 2017 5:49 pm

Googly wrote:
Sun Nov 05, 2017 12:00 pm
Pariah you spent years arguing for and now you are vociferously against?
Anyone arguing against Jarvis’ and Taylor’s return don’t really understand cricket.
Anyone claiming their pay packages have strained the coffers hasn’t done the numbers, and choose to ignore where the bulk of the cash has really gone. It’s a great side show to distract everyone from the real issues and culprits.
If there’s an issue amongst the other players about those two getting more and that there should be some sort of equality then I’m afraid they don’t understand anything.
A downing of tools to protest this when a blind eye is turned about every other issue will prove with some finality what dumb manipulated sheep our players are. If that ever happens then I will walk away.
I’m curious why ZC can’t renege on this mystery 18m outstanding loan under our new leader?
We know Hami's contract is worth ~ 65,000 USD a year (recent article from Mohammad Isam highkighting that ZIM and IRE players earn more than Bangladeshi players).

Assuming Taylor and Jarvis signed 4 year deals worth 1 million USD each, means 250,000 per year. Sounds like a lot, but pales in comparison to the hundreds of millions the ZC has gotten from the ICC from World Cups, grants, bailouts, etc.

So of hhm wants to cry about 250k...he is a hyocrite or he's psychotic.
Truth is on the side of the oppressed; its against the oppressor. Time is on the side of the oppressed; its against the oppressor. You don't need anything else.
[Malcolm X]

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Re: Surely you could have acknowledged that I was completely right?

Post by pariah » Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:49 pm

I give up with you guys. I was going to post articles that prove that even the old white led crciket board (ZImbabwe Cricket Union) which only served just a tiny a fraction of the people in ZIM, also had troubles. That Admin too were paid more than the players. And they had fights with the players as a result.

Also part of the reason why some players left Zimbabwe cricket. But why bother? I've posted them before plenty times and it was deflected and defended.

You just don't see it!

Kriterion_BD
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Re: Surely you could have acknowledged that I was completely right?

Post by Kriterion_BD » Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:54 pm

pariah wrote:
Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:49 pm
I give up with you guys. I was going to post articles that prove that even the old white led crciket board (ZImbabwe Cricket Union) which only served just a tiny a fraction of the people in ZIM, also had troubles. That Admin too were paid more than the players. And they had fights with the players as a result.

Also part of the reason why some players left Zimbabwe cricket. But why bother? I've posted them before plenty times and it was deflected and defended.

You just don't see it!
Doesnt matter if the whites stole 100 million. The blacks stole 200. Your denial wont change it.

I really wonder what your bank statements look like, pariah, as vociferously as you defend the indefensible theft by indigenous ZIM admins of ZC.
Truth is on the side of the oppressed; its against the oppressor. Time is on the side of the oppressed; its against the oppressor. You don't need anything else.
[Malcolm X]

pariah
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Re: Surely you could have acknowledged that I was completely right?

Post by pariah » Sun Nov 05, 2017 9:16 pm

Kriterion_BD wrote:
Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:54 pm
Doesnt matter if the whites stole 100 million.[/quoteHow many of them doing the stealing, and from how many victims?
The blacks stole 200.
How many of them doing the stealing, and from how many victims?

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Re: Surely you could have acknowledged that I was completely right?

Post by eugene » Sun Nov 05, 2017 9:17 pm

pariah wrote:
Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:49 pm
I give up with you guys. I was going to post articles that prove that even the old white led crciket board (ZImbabwe Cricket Union) which only served just a tiny a fraction of the people in ZIM, also had troubles. That Admin too were paid more than the players. And they had fights with the players as a result.

Also part of the reason why some players left Zimbabwe cricket. But why bother? I've posted them before plenty times and it was deflected and defended.

You just don't see it!
There have always been player/admin battles in ZCU/ZC. The difference being in the 90s the battles were over how to best run cricket, whereas in the 2000s the battles have been over how best to steal money and keep the players obedient.
Neil Johnson, Alistair Campbell, Murray Goodwin, Andy Flower (w), Grant Flower, Dave Houghton, Guy Whittall, Heath Streak (c), Andy Blignaut, Ray Price, Eddo Brandes

pariah
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Re: Surely you could have acknowledged that I was completely right?

Post by pariah » Sun Nov 05, 2017 9:22 pm

Kriterion_BD wrote:
Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:54 pm
..the indefensible theft by indigenous ZIM admins of ZC.
None of you and all journos globally have ever proved this.

My version remains fact, and yours fiction.

I had interesting discussions on this in Conant's article a 4 years ago
http://www.theroar.com.au/2013/09/29/wh ... /#comments

Where is betterdays?
Wonderful article and very interesting Conant! But of course Peter Ndlovu is better than George Shaya lol! None of our cricket teams(Flower era included) have ever had the kind of overall talent Zimbabwe’s national football teams have had – particularly the two generations stretching from 1990-2006. After all, it’s not that hard to look good, or come close to achieving something as a nation in a sport that only comprises 10 nations at most. Like Cricket, a similar situation exists in Rugby. Football operates at a much higher level. Australia merely reaching the 2006 round of 16 in the FIFA World Cup ranks greater than any RWC, CWC or Ashes & Tri-Nations victory they’ve ever achieved!

Back to the gist of your article, it’s such a pity that our boys won’t be playing another Test so soon after a well-deserved triumph. I fancied our chances against Sri Lanka. Right now our boys are a highly talented bunch and the support players are of top quality too. Cricket in Zimbabwe has never at any point been blessed with such depth in riches, and most importantly, the key performers are the very products of the policies reviled by many ignorant people divorced from true happenings on the ground, but just a well thought out cumulative media demonization campaign over the years to speak from.

In your own uncharacteristic contradiction, you unconsciously reveal a lot of valuable information. We find the answers as to why this tour is not happening, and for the right reasons. You accurately commend and highlight how this new administration has been bold in making the right decisions, where previously that was expected though not the case – which in itself shows that the Mukondiwa led administration is actually competent & bold. That Bvute the esteemed predecessor similarly made tough decisions and was a highly respected administrator is common knowledge, so it follows that this new administration is neither a lowering of standards, nor his absence a damaging loss. Consequently your criticism should be pointed at some of the rot that was sown in the time between those two administrations.

Some of the ICC imposed suggestions forced compromises which, within a short period of time, significantly burdened Zimbabwe Cricket for years to come. If you recall, several faces including Alistair Campbell, Neil Manthorp etc, plus some substandard pensioner cricketers and fringe county players were brought in to give an impression to some narrow minded people that all was well. You see, the mere presence of our fairer cousins is all the evidence that’s needed to prove that something in Africa actually functions. The late Peter Roebuck highlighted these things. Just like IMF-WB and its ESAP on Zimbabwe’s economy, these left ZC with millions in debt. Where are these self-less cricketers now that ZC is no longer willing to borrow further to overpay them as part of a cosmetic exercise, at the expense of its children(local players, coaches and administrators)? They are playing cricket, coaching and commentating all over the world after making a quick buck and gaining scarce mandatory experience for better paying jobs there, while regularly taking time off to utter negatives about Zimbabwe and Zimbabwe cricket in the social media circles – the very nation they owe so much to!

Some may argue their experience was required, but Zimbabwe had a functioning FC system before it was suspended due to lack of funds in 2006, and was resumed in 2007. True they had administrative challenges along the way, but Chatara aside, virtually all the players responsible for our recent victories were developed before the costly compromises were implemented, not after! Even the likes of Hamilton Masakadza, Prosper Utseya & Elton Chigumbura among many others, (along with the absent Taibu & Matsikenyeri etc) were products of the Peter Chingoka led administration’s tireless efforts, foresight and scholarships. The only thing those needlessly costly changes did was earn acceptance. Had crucially needed funds been made available in 2005, our boys would have been much further today, plus resumed Test cricket much earlier than 2011.

Going back to your contradiction I allude to, these Conant are the reasons why ZC could not afford host another Sri Lanka tour – opportunity cost! The domestic FC season which was in danger of not happening will actually begin soon. A large number of developing players were enrolled to a resuscitated academy where they’ve been receiving quality cricket training during our off-season. Other top non-contracted reserve players, who take our national players core up to 25 players, have been in camp as “sparring partners” to our first XI during incoming tours, which is why the heroics of the brilliant Tinashe Panyangara could be readily called upon. As we speak, our u19s(just like our national u15&17s months before in South Africa) are getting a hammering in India, but a necessary education nonetheless. Several support staff such as the grounds men who pulled off a miracle to produce a magnificent pitch within such a short turnaround time – something highly paid ground staff in top cricket nations fail to achieve with months of paid advance notice&preparation – are being meagrely remunerated but a wage even so. ZC admin staff had to selflessly forgo their salaries so that the overdue salaries of our justifiably impatient players could be honoured.

Their TV income amounts to peanuts, there is no significant domestic or foreign sponsorship coming in, and the public cannot afford to pay hefty gate charges. Where is the revenue coming from? They have to resort to borrowing to supplement this, considering the very sum of the money they receive from the ICC at intervals is completely dwarfed by what they have had to borrow over the same time for their unavoidable budgetary needs. They had already hosted enough over the last couple of years and cannot afford much else(AUS XI twice, SA XI twice, BD XI once, BD twice, NZ once, IND once & PAK twice). In between they’ve toured NZ&WI once each which was a loss because they could not afford the flights to begin with, and barely managed a surplus from the little they got out of their brief appearance at the T20 WC. Therefore, the little left from India’s tour (the only profit-making tour all these years) after servicing some of the outstanding debts, a nation’s entire domestic season’s demands could not be overlooked to fulfil a single loss-making tour! All the more reason why they are pushing for a Tri-Series involving Aus&SA next year, so hopefully that income, including a little from the WC that year can sustain them going forward, seeing as the FTP reveals a bleak calendar and revenue for years to come.

Comparatively, if India doesn’t tour South Africa this year (or a long tour), it will have huge ramifications for the game in the country, stretching over many years. School, junior, club, provincial, franchise and national cricket will be affected – players, coaches, academies and admin staff will all be affected. Facing reduced revenue, in the long term, some jobs will be cut, salaries will be reduced and there will be player plus staff walkouts and ultimately a weak cricket team. Not as much affected as Zimbabwe, but sufficient to dent the nation’s cricket and be blamed on the ANC!

Not wanting to be dictated to, years ago ZC adopted much needed policies which some cricket countries didn’t like (by extension the country as a whole), so they voted with their feet and Aus&Eng money was followed them. Similarly CSA’s decision – not that I rate Lorgat or his appointment but they are entitled to it – has brought this dilemma to them as well. That’s not corruption, that’s loss of revenue beyond their control depending on the way you look at it. In Zimbabwe’s case, if even weakened international Aus, Eng&SA sides, like India recently, had also toured, instead of merely burdening them with costs through their A side like Aus&SA did, Zimbabwe would not be in so much debt or be cancelling SL right now! Period!

You, along with some here, accuse ZC of being corrupt&incompetent, something that I and indeed many other fair&unbiased observers deny. All this while, their relatively clean audited financials have been available for scrutiny by all stakeholders or concerned parties. As with all other Full Members & Associates, the ICC has been able to study things for themselves several times before. They have not reported anything on the contrary or found anything that is highly uncommon in the administrative lives of all others including CSA, ECB, CA etc. While some form of corruption and mismanagement of funds by Black ZC administrators isn’t non-existent, the extent to which it has been portrayed or its effects is a myth, and I could’ve used stronger words than that. So until the day all you naysayers can provide tangible, irrefutable proof of the level os corruption&mismanagement alluded to, I suggest you limit your comments to commendation of ZC administrators and the loyal remaining players for their discernible efforts. Nothing more! They immensely warrant our unreserved respect.
If you want any information on Zimbabwe cricket(financials, audit and corporate governance reports etc), feel free to contact ZC. Even the ICC will gladly disclose to you all the latest information they have which should be as up to date as mid 2012. Or better yet, why don’t you ask the ECB&CA for what information they have and share with us their response then we can talk. There were specific prerequisites to Zimbabwe Cricket being recently granted US$1.5mil over 3 years, of the TAPP fund by the ICC EXECUTIVE BOARD, and if they didn’t meet them they wouldn’t have received the money (http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci-icc/cont ... 86476.html). Mugabe’s mere existence, and Cameron for that matter, or the nature of the relationship of the ZC President with him, as with ECB Chairperson & the Prime Minister, does not miraculously redefine the accuracy of those facts or the universally accepted standards by which they are measured.

So what if Peter Chingoka is close to his Excellency President Mugabe – which is far from being the case though, but naturally you’ve been conveniently educated otherwise by the shamelessly selective media! He’s probably had fewer meetings with Mugabe than your Queen herself has probably had with him over the years! Being banned or on travel lists(i.e. random bullying) by hypocritical figures & authorities with vastly superior gross human rights backgrounds, simply because economically they are in an advantageous and influential position to do so, hardly makes those judgements morally worth any more than the paper their printed on now does it. Last time I checked, the US is not part of that joke called the ICC(Hague). Neither are our fellow cricket Full Member countries India&Pakistan. If it had any semblance of relevance then I doubt if the White House&Downing Street would have ever had a single resident who lasted beyond half of their first single full term! Like you and I Mugabe will eventually die, only far more revered & immortalised globally than either of us, plus nearly all the leaders you respect. However, there’s absolutely no reason for him to be at the Hague at all, or be concerned about its existence. None whatsoever. Those are the facts my friend!
Ireland will never be a Full Member at Zimbabwe’s expense. In fact, Ireland(or Canada) will never be made a Full Member alone. Either Afghanistan (or one of Kenya/Namibia/UAE) will be simultaneously voted in alongside them or before they are. Truth be told, all countries & boards, including the ECB&CA, are in some form puppets of the BCCI – far more than Zimbabwe is. You’d be lying to yourself if you convinced yourself otherwise.
I know my story! ;)
The onus on investing time in obtaining them and presenting those figures rests with the accuser. Why waste time and money to build up a defence to silly accusations which at their core lack substance?! There are many avenues beside ZC, through whom you can corroborate provided information or obtain suppressed facts.

Apart from ZC’s HR office, ZIMRA(Inland Revenue Service) has all the salary information for the individuals you point to. If you follow the relevant internal or legal channels they will present you with those facts – even if it’s delayed or not in electronic format lol! But ultimately you’ll get it. Zimbabwe is not a failed state, neither are its people and its systems dysfunctional. They function and you can safely navigate them if you so wish.

Similarly the Franchise system ensured that all foreign FC&List A players were employed by CEOs who run the franchises and contract the players independently of ZC, whose commitment was an agreed grant. Of all CEOs, Stanley Staddon & Kenyon Ziehl were the biggest culprits in terms of taking more than the necessary advantage of that system, so you can contact the Rhinos&Tuskers offices for those salary disclosures of the needless imports. All the more reason why rounds of the 4 day Logan Cup matches had to be cut to accommodate salaries for the ZC run T20, within that grant, after the Dominus T20 failed under the leadership of the contracted firm.

Yes coming to that Stanbic Bank T20, Dominus the baby of the sly combination of Alistair Campbell & Dirk Viljoen was responsible for paying the players and admin staff associated with it. ZC’s crime was to contribute/invest a sum of money plus Zimbabwean players largely paid by ZC, while they had no direct&legal hands-on oversight of the venture, and ultimately got nothing in return pretty much writing that off as development costs. Those two figures, together with their associates, are the people whom we should be asking questions as to how much they received in TV rights from Naspers owned DSTV Supersport, and how they spent it. ZC financials give us some insight, what of Dominus?

One guy here refers to that well publicised yet unknown KPMG report which never left the room. Perhaps the US(CIA),UK&EU, and indeed Mugabe’s government itself judging by some cables, need to enlist the services of whoever ZC&KPMG is making use of because not a single person was able to leak this so called damaging report! ChrisUK needs to apply common sense here. We’re in the 21st century. Surely for Malcolm to speak in authority about this report – lest he be written off as a terminal and pathetic liar, he and indeed other executives, had to have had a copy and examined it personally. Unless of course he was only allowed that privilege under armed guard or some other form duress. Following which that part of his memory was erased to the point where he could not disclose a single note with figures to back it up. In any case Speed himself said “there was no compelling evidence of personal gain” in the report (which means you can all keep quiet about Bvute-Chingoka dipping their hands). Anyway, it’s similar to the BCCI’s concerns about Lorgat whom they wanted referred to the ICC’s Ethics committee but that was ignored.

Going back to the admin salaries, it doesn’t matter how much ALL the admin staff have earned in comparison to the sacrifice they had to make, it remains contractually what they were entitled to and for the majority it’s nothing significant. They like all the players have always received a retainer due to them, only the match fees and other earnings apart from the basic was outstanding for the cricketers. I doubt many of the admin staff are entitled to more than their basic. Of course as you say I should quote figures to my knowledge, which I would gladly do to follow ZC’s lead. They have not felt compelled to reveal more information than is a basic requirement or voluntary example set by any other board, so why should they be selectively pushed to disclose information that others are not subjected to? While ZC&CSA are officially the only boards running at a loss, technically only the BCCI is liquid and running at a profit, and the rest are in the red. In fact, some like the BCB, WICB, SLCB etc have had major financial troubles involving player salaries. Ironically, questions asked of Zimbabwe have never been asked of them on a similar scale by the scathing media. Until then the advantage rests with the INNOCENT & FALSELY accused ZC.

NB: Judging by you reference to the ZCF, it means that squad’s exclusive domain is still up! Lol!! Once Loki freezes the gatekeeper, get Scotty to beam me up, but I won’t hold my breath! Meanwhile no worm is nibbling into my gourd plant so I’ll be basking under my shade. On the contrary, the wilderness is kinder than I thought …just tell me who Anti that putrid surgical tail is…
“”Tbh, I am not interested in ECB or CSA’s financial issues but as an avid follower of Zim cricket and having emotionally invested in the team I would like – regardless of legalities – for them to be clear…..I am not asking ZC to answer to external bodies [but to] those with a positively passionate interest. I don’t judge by comparison; I believe, to move forward, we, as Zimbabweans, must be self-critical (of course, we defend each other too … but I cannot – by labelling it ‘fighting hypocrisy’ – dismiss our faults by highlighting the faults in others).””

These are very sound positions that you’ve taken betterdays, and you qualify them very well. Unfortunately, while you may not judge by comparison, taking it into consideration will show you why information will never be at your fingertips where anything in Zimbabwe is concerned.

What I do know is that a lot of the financial information particularly pertaining to administrators, employees and sportspeople globally, is often the result of media speculation, not specifics, except for those who leaked those payslips and are still pursued by the law to this day. To expect Zimbabwe, ZC or any other institution to be religious where transparency is concerned is wishful.

While every other country freely and comfortably visits Zimbabwe for sports purposes, some(England of course) opt to sulk, politicise the matter, and do everything in their power to ostracise them internationally. Not to mention that they were solely opposed to Zimbabwe achieving Test status in the first place. From cricket their position has spread to every other sporting discipline. All founded on falsehoods, and of course ungrateful contemptible ambassadors such as Henry and Andy plus many others who were meant to be so called self-critical proponents. There are greater things at play which they nurse via how they manage information.

What I can state confidently is that Zimbabweans experience far more freedom and transparency in comparison to citizens of that Anglo-American axis. That is my opinion, but if you dig deeper you will unerringly arrive at the same conclusion.

You should be concerning yourself as to why Cricinfo etc always quote the likes of Taylor, Jarvis, Sean, Heath, Grant, Gillespie, Coltart etc, as opposed to the likes of Elton, Hondo, Chawaguta, Makoni, Tikolo, Chirombe or even Peter Chingoka himself when considering sensitive subjects. Or declare if and reasons given if their efforts to solicit interviews were rebuffed. At the end of the day the issues which tickle your curiosity stem from such reports, whose sources are strangely one dimensional. Inevitably then, you may find that you get worked up based on one side of the story which has been proven over 95% of the time to be false. Ever wondered that maybe you have very little or nothing to be overly worried about?!

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