You say a lot Taps!TapsC wrote: ↑Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:06 amI actually agree with you when you say the West was verery involved. that is a very plausible theory. I have a friend who works at one of those Western Embassies and he told us that the West was supporting Mnangagwa over a year ago because he had the backing of the military.. we all brushed him aside thinking it was just bar talk but looking at it now there is no way the coup could have taken place without them knowing.
To me the whole world was complicit besides the AU contries who are so quick to defend dictators. China have massive investments in Zim and they have been stalling their investments plans because Mugabe was now becoming a problem to them. Mnangagwa has steong links with China. I mean Mugabe accused him and the army of looting 15 billion with the help of the Chinese.
In the end Mugabe has himself to blame. that's just the honest truth. the army have always been kingmakers in Zimbabwe since the 1970s. Mugabe wasn't the original Zanu leader but the army forcefully put him there through general Mujuru replacing Ndabaningi Sithole. in the 1980s they crushed the only opposition he had in Nkomo and Zapu. 2008 he lost fair and square and the army intervened killing hundreds of people. this in fact means he has been an illegitimate leader for 9 years. the whole region knows that. Thabo Mbeki is even rumoured to have been given a gold mine in Zimbabwe for helping Mugabe stay on with his quiet diplomacy tactics which betrayed the people of Zimbabwe. Jonathan Moyo himself is now openly saying the army intervened in 2008.
So Mugabe thought eliminating General Mujuru would solve the problem yet these guys have been his source of power for his whole rule. why would any of us feel sorry for him then? he clearly overestimated his power and thought he was a demi-god like Mnangagwa said. he lost
Few corrections, Mugabe, Moyo etc were against the 2008 army violence. Internal army factions is what drove them to get rid of Solomon Mujuru. Conant believes Mujuru had weight, I believe he was a lightweight, only power he had was within army structures and a few Generals. With time Chiwenga and co eroded that base. When you'r eno longer active it's hard to command respect. Chiwenga knew that when he was about to be fired by Mugabe that he had to act, otherwise his replacement would immediately stand by Mugabe and "normalcy" resumes.
I think you need to read up more on the Mugabe, Sithole etc matter. But start from the Chitepo - Tongogara links. But hold your thoughts on that until then.
Nkomo was a sellout. Why did he run to the UK? Remember decades ago he did the exact same thing Mnangagwa did recently - wrote a similar letter too. Those are all textbook Western managed regime change tactics. I personally believe Nkomo wanted to effect a coup with the help of Peter Walls and his filthy buddies plus the Apartheid bastards. Fact that the Brits didn't run with it(violence/force) at the time doesn't mean they weren't keen. They finally did it now - bloodless. But this is the only matter where I differ with Jonathan Moyo because he argues it was false intel spread by the Apartheid Nats which caused Gukurahundi.
Whoever told you about Thabo Mbeki and the gold mine doesn;t know what they are talking about. Mbeki via his wife and brother had already looted SA enough, so no Zimbabwean gold mine could "bribe" him.
A lot of these things don't really need you to get the information from someone else. By putting two and two together - plus removing emotion from it, one can easily see what makes sense or not.
Mnangagwa rose from the Tsholotsho declaration disaster to be Mugabe's Vice President and now a West+ZDF darling. Everything Mnangagwa suffered was with the army's full blessing. Basically, Mnangagwa was so vulnerable and desperate he could be anyone's pony. All the more reason why it makes absolute sense that Chiwenga is the real power in Zimbabwe now. Just as much as Mnangagwa was desperate, so was Chiwenga, but at least he had a tool - loyal chain of command, plus a politician with a bit of weight to head what he was putting in place.
This is why I said ZImbabwe is now a completely useless country because the West is masking judicial and democracy flaws that will never again be addressed nor problems around their existence openly acknowledged, plus they share the pawn(Mnangagwa) with the very army that propped up Mugabe.
Finally, Mugabe was more powerful than the army. Way more powerful. That's the difference. He was just hours away from being restored to the Presidency and the army stood down. SA and Russia(plus SADC and AU) would have seen to it. Mnangagwa on the other hand does not have that leverage, and never will.
In the first few years of Mugabe presidency he was backed by the West so army couldn't tell him anything. After that when Mugabe went against the West (and fertile land-hoarding white section), the whole of Africa (bar Botswana and Senegal West stooges) he was elevated to greatness. Even Kenneth Kaunda(one of the elder statesmen with mandela and Co then) had to tow the line. Same with Olusegun Obasanjo then Nigerian leader whom West successfully got to criticise Mugabe and ZANU initially, but he had to make an about turn. This is precisely why Thabo Mbeki, for his own legacy, could not afford to go against anything Mugabe said/did.
This while thing goes back to:
1. Failure to get rid of Chiwenga swiftly and successfully (hence Jonathan Moyo's fears about all institutions being infiltrated - Chiwenga tipped off and survived). Couldn;t just fire him without holding him to force army to act vilenty to free him if they dared - none of which West etc would have backed.
2. Shameless judiciary
3. West's determination to take the risks with the little- Chiwenga-Judiciary-Mnangagwa window.
Once all of ZANU and Mugabe knew this was the case, then obviously those who supported Mugabe all changed allegiance immediately and sacked him.