Children of Men

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ZIMDOGGY
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Children of Men

Post by ZIMDOGGY »

I’ve brought this up countless times, but I will continue too.

We really have a pending crisis with our ages of our players. The Tap is seriously turned off below the surface. Of our top 11 (one of the best we have fielded in the last 20 years tbh) 6 are well past 30.
I think if selection was on point and Williams was in, that could be 7, and even 8 should Streaks boy Mpofu have been in the side instead of Blessing. Which is all conceivable if you picked the side purely on merit.
Also Mire is 29 and not fat off either.

We firstly need to fix the school system, we can hold fort and
paper over the cracks in the next 4 years if the next bunch (current bunch are useless) of 19s bear fruit.
I’m certain that if our 30 plus players left the system tomorrrow, we are par with Uganda and the USA and below Scotland, Kenya etc. just fact.

After the next cup, we need an aggressive strategy to replace and replenish. We have made the right decision boning sibanda and Elton for these reasons (and this is why they aren’t coming back) but we need to go further out of necessity.

As it stands today, we need to cull the timeline as follows;

2019;
Mpofu/ Waller
2020;
Hamilton and Williams
2021;
Ervine
2022
Taylor raza

Cremer can go as long as he wants.

Hopefully that gives time to blood Murray, burl, Tari,Harrison, Schandendorf, madhevere and whatever younger kids we can muster up to the scene.
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Kriterion_BD
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Re: Children of Men

Post by Kriterion_BD »

Are you prediciting when these guys will retire or suggesting ZC let them go at those dates?

I don't know how the current U-19 batch is, or if guys like Byrom and Welch will come back (still a decent chance IMO), but the current ZIM seniors (Taylor, Ervine, Raza, Hamilton, Cremer, Jarvis) need to go on as long as they are scoring runs and taking wickets. Those two things should be the only consideration. Doesn't matter if they are 20 yo or 40.
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jaybro
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Re: Children of Men

Post by jaybro »

The problem is ZC will have to retire these guys because they won't retire themselves because they've clearly not made a heap of cash from the game and because we play barely any cricket the guys could probably play into their late 30's.

I'd be happy to move on from such players like Dogg has said in a progressive mode but if we start losing badly the pressure will be on to recall these guys, how many times have we tried to move on from Hami ???

Since have a few good young fast bowlers coming through I'd be happy to move past Mpofu, Tiripano and Tinashe ( if he returns ) I'd like to see us really invest in Blessing, Mumba, Ngarava, Mashinge, Masuku & Bruce.

Looking at the batting Malcolm's time may be up and also Williams since he's 30 odd and out of the side due to another run in with authorities. Hami is in rich form I wouldn't be looking to drop him anytime soon.

I'd be happy to have Ryan Murray to become keeper in all 3 formats after the WC if he's as good as Googly said he is, guys like Moor, Burl & Tari are the obvious young guys who have already been blooded but I think the likes of Shumba, Roache & Scadendorf should / could be fast tracked into the national setup.

Guys like Mutombodzi, Wellington, Chari and Jongwe are still around but it seems Streak and Taibu are looking past them

I'd really like to see Jeremy Ives, Nick Welch and Eddie Byrom brought into the system but you'd probably have to pick them in the national side to get them interested much like they've done with Murray who was suppose to be going to Uni but all of a sudden he's on tour in BD.

Mashinge is the guy I think we really need to develop as a medium fast bowling allrounder who can bat in the middle to lower order, every side is looking for such a player and Zimbabwe is no different.

By the time the next qualifiers come around could we see this lineup ?

Byrom
Mire
Burl
BT
Raza
Tari
Murray
Mashinge
Cremer
Mumba / Blessing / Ngarava
KJ / Chatara
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The Robot
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Re: Children of Men

Post by The Robot »

jaybro wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 4:57 am
The problem is ZC will have to retire these guys because they won't retire themselves because they've clearly not made a heap of cash from the game and because we play barely any cricket the guys could probably play into their late 30's.

I'd be happy to move on from such players like Dogg has said in a progressive mode but if we start losing badly the pressure will be on to recall these guys, how many times have we tried to move on from Hami ???

Since have a few good young fast bowlers coming through I'd be happy to move past Mpofu, Tiripano and Tinashe ( if he returns ) I'd like to see us really invest in Blessing, Mumba, Ngarava, Mashinge, Masuku & Bruce.

Looking at the batting Malcolm's time may be up and also Williams since he's 30 odd and out of the side due to another run in with authorities. Hami is in rich form I wouldn't be looking to drop him anytime soon.

I'd be happy to have Ryan Murray to become keeper in all 3 formats after the WC if he's as good as Googly said he is, guys like Moor, Burl & Tari are the obvious young guys who have already been blooded but I think the likes of Shumba, Roache & Scadendorf should / could be fast tracked into the national setup.

Guys like Mutombodzi, Wellington, Chari and Jongwe are still around but it seems Streak and Taibu are looking past them

I'd really like to see Jeremy Ives, Nick Welch and Eddie Byrom brought into the system but you'd probably have to pick them in the national side to get them interested much like they've done with Murray who was suppose to be going to Uni but all of a sudden he's on tour in BD.

Mashinge is the guy I think we really need to develop as a medium fast bowling allrounder who can bat in the middle to lower order, every side is looking for such a player and Zimbabwe is no different.

By the time the next qualifiers come around could we see this lineup ?

Byrom
Mire
Burl
BT
Raza
Tari
Murray
Mashinge
Cremer
Mumba / Blessing / Ngarava
KJ / Chatara

Alistar Cook had bad patch at the Ashes, just one double ton wont be enough to raise question against him. Haseeb Hameed has got problems with injury, Jennings is inconsistent.

Byrom will definately look to score big this season and make it to the Lions Squad and then become a probable for England instead of playing for Zimbabwe
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jaybro
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Re: Children of Men

Post by jaybro »

The Robot wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 5:35 am

Alistar Cook had bad patch at the Ashes, just one double ton wont be enough to raise question against him. Haseeb Hameed has got problems with injury, Jennings is inconsistent.

Byrom will definately look to score big this season and make it to the Lions Squad and then become a probable for England instead of playing for Zimbabwe
Byrom has one half century in CC I doubt he's on the radar at the moment and after seeing how Gary Ballance has been thrown on the scrap heap I wonder if some of these young Zimbabwean players in England are wondering if playing for England is still the best idea.

The thing with all these 'nationalised' English players they're always the first ones to be made the scapgoat when shit hits the fan, you'll find Hick and Ballance were always 'Zimbabwean born batsman' when they failed.
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The Robot
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Re: Children of Men

Post by The Robot »

jaybro wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 5:55 am
The Robot wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 5:35 am

Alistar Cook had bad patch at the Ashes, just one double ton wont be enough to raise question against him. Haseeb Hameed has got problems with injury, Jennings is inconsistent.

Byrom will definately look to score big this season and make it to the Lions Squad and then become a probable for England instead of playing for Zimbabwe
Byrom has one half century in CC I doubt he's on the radar at the moment and after seeing how Gary Ballance has been thrown on the scrap heap I wonder if some of these young Zimbabwean players in England are wondering if playing for England is still the best idea.

The thing with all these 'nationalised' English players they're always the first ones to be made the scapgoat when shit hits the fan, you'll find Hick and Ballance were always 'Zimbabwean born batsman' when they failed.
Byrom is just 20 and within one season he has made into the Somerset county from the 2nd XI team with some performance, he is talented opening batsman and if he score plenty this season, he will definately be under the selector's radar. Ballance is still in their radar, as he scores plenty in county cricket and automatic choice for the Lions. ECB doesn't cares about nationality, they see skills and hence they put that player of differant nation in their national team. Kevin Petersen, Strauss, Trott, Kieswetter all were of South African Orgin played some cricket in South Africa. ECB even tried to put Saqlain Mushtaq & Mushtaq Ahmed to represent England in 2000 after they were ignored by the PCB. You can't show any English playing XI of any era with all of them having birth place from England
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TapsC
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Re: Children of Men

Post by TapsC »

I agree that we need a succession plan. I think on the bowling front we are ok with the rising stars probably having the strongest bowling line-up if you add Mumba to them. Mumba Muzarabani Ngarava and Mavuta is pretty decent.

It's the young batsmen I'm concerned about with only Tari Burl Byrom and Murray who I think are capable of making the step up.

I fear that we will go through a Kenya situation where our team will genuinely peak but all the guys will be like 36 or 37. Cricket is a good paying job in Zim so I doubt any of these guy will willingly retire as well. Just look at how desperate Prosper got.

For me I think being out of the test league is perfect for us and we should use it to build a strong (pace focused) team. One thing I have noticed about test cricket a strong pace attack on a green pitch is almost impossible to play. Why the proteas batsmen are better than most in playing pace is because they face those same bowlers everyday in the nets.

So I would create a green pitch maybe in Mutare and invest heavily in

Vitori(born in 1990) to get his action right as he is our fastest bowler and will be more ready than Ngarava to play.

Chatara(born in 1991) clearly a very good bowler. One of our best and he is only 26. Let's get him the rehab he really needs so that he can get back to full fitness which will allow him to bowl faster and longer.

Mumba(1995) has lots of potential and can easily be our fastest. We need to make sure he gets world class treatment in his rehab to make sure he doesn't lose his pace yet.

Muzarabani(1996) we all saw there is something to work with there. He needs to bulk up so that he can actually bowl faster

Ngarava(1997) heard he is very aggressive and we need to keep that fire burning so that he can take over from Vitori at some stage.

Mavuta(1997) I'm expecting Cremer to have a really long Herath style kind of career so I'm hoping Mavuta can focus on batting as well so that maybe he can come in as a genuine all rounder.

We all know what Tari Burl and Ed Byrom can do. We have to throw money at Byrom just like we did for those other 2.

Also I think it's a genuine myth that we play spin better. I think what they meant is that our best players play spin better but what about the rest? I would say only BT Ervine and Williams are 100% comfortable playing spin and they are old. I would rather we move to preparing pace friendly tracks and making sure the upcoming fast bowlers are ready for the challenge.

Byrom
Mire
Tari
Burl
BT
PJ
Murray(wk)
Cremer
Vitori
Chatara
Blessing

That's a team I could live with in the future

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jaybro
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Re: Children of Men

Post by jaybro »

TapsC wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 7:36 am
Also I think it's a genuine myth that we play spin better.
Never heard anyone say we play spin well lol
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Googly
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Re: Children of Men

Post by Googly »

If we don’t qualify for the WC it may well put a succession plan in fast forward. With less money coming in can you imagine the shambles that will be our FC!! I don’t even want to contemplate it.
I’ve said this 100 times- if we can’t drain the swamp by voting, then we need a players union that can insist there are proper people running the show. The players need to grow a set and realize the people at the helm have sunk us. We can’t go on not playing club and franchise games, haemorrhaging players, cash, goodwill etc etc. After dismantling independently run Club cricket because that’s how the voting used to work, ZC are now responsible for running it and they’ve failed dismally. The same people with briefly better intentions won’t ever manage it. If money was not the issue they simply don’t have the skills or the enthusiasm to manage. They never will. Ever.
This talk of the succession issue is looming and it’s a good topic, and should be a highly uncomfortable one for ZC because it’s real and problematic. However it’s still a few years away so it’s not being seriously addressed. They will scratch their heads the day after Hami, Ervine and BT retire, not a second before.
When you have $90 million at your disposal and the real possibility of playing lower level cricket that will halve your income looms menacingly surely it’s time to be really pro-active and smart? Once we’re out we’re out and there’s no return.
Let me assure you that the Rising Stars initiative is only effective at instilling some optimism that there’s a means of getting into cricket for those with few options. It’s not going to create players of international caliber. ZC are under some pressure to show that they’re doing something and thus we’ve seen Rising Stars and a big effort at u19. In my view it’s a token gesture, too little too late. I’m not completely knocking it, it’s a start, but it hasn’t unearthed a batsman that will dominate at FC level, let alone International level (except for Tari who has a shot at being decent). It’s revealed that the cupboard is bare and that we’re in shit and need to act, so at least it’s done something. Just get a top player/coach and ask them which of these guys has a realistic chance of becoming a batsman that will replace BT and Hammy and has a chance of winning us some games. There’s nobody. We’re going to be spending some serious cash sending some really marginal guys on a free holiday and providing a handy income for Taibu and Matsi. The initiative is only good if you go with a strong squad, it would be infinitely more effective picking the few good guys and sending them to proper academies in Australia, SA or England where they get proper specialized intensive boot camp coaching. If they’d sent Matigimu, Jongwe, Ngarava and Mazarabani to that fast bowling academy in Australia for 6 months a year ago we’d now be looking at 4 guys who could bowl 140 with a repeatable action that won’t cause injury (I’m talking about Matigimu). Likewise with spinners, pay for them to go to an expert for 6 months. Jongwe was (is?) a real talent and this is what happens to good players in our system.
I’ve seen 6 batters in 5 years outside of our national set up that potentially have the ability to step up and do well on the international stage and only one is still playing cricket here. That’s an amazing number when you consider how few boys play, it’s more than amazing actually, it means there’s something in our water. It takes serious talent and dedication from the player, coach and parents to make one of these guys, you don’t just arbitrarily convert a moderately ok schoolboy into an international batsman, the kid has to be a stand out stroke maker, oozing ability and be tough and want to practice, then you’ve still only got half a chance because you don’t know how he will cope at the higher levels. If you’re lucky enough to find one of these in your stocking as a parent or coach then you need to jump up and down because they’re like rocking horse shit. Most coaches shouldn’t be allowed near one of these boys, and that’s the truth, they need to go to an expert. The problem is most people here wouldn’t recognize cricketing talent if it slapped them repeatedly in the face. As I stated, of those 6 players, we’ve lost 5, it’s almost criminal because they were that good and that was our problems solved right there in one go.
We’ve got a couple of decent u17’s and seem to have some good boys in u16. This age group, picking from only 5 schools, could compete in the SA inter-provincials and not disgrace themselves. There’s no need to comb Muzarabani, there’s 7-8 good boys in 5 schools who play good competitive cricket and are willing to learn, ZC will probably ignore at least 4 of them in favour of development players. Out of this lot there are currently two very very good ones, with the others not far behind. One of them has already been offered full scholarships at two fancy English schools, so knowledgeable people out there rate him highly, he’d be playing age group County (20 games a season plus another 20 competitive school games) the second his feet touched the ground with the best coaching and opportunities imaginable, yet he’s just another kid in our set up playing 7 games a season and hoping he gets picked for an age group tour in a couple of years time. This is the reason why they leave and why we can’t develop players. We have to offer these talented boys something extra right now.

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Re: Children of Men

Post by Kriterion_BD »

Let me assure you that the Rising Stars initiative is only effective at instilling some optimism that there’s a means of getting into cricket for those with few options. It’s not going to create players of international caliber. ZC are under some pressure to show that they’re doing something and thus we’ve seen Rising Stars and a big effort at u19. In my view it’s a token gesture, too little too late. I’m not completely knocking it, it’s a start, but it hasn’t unearthed a batsman that will dominate at FC level, let alone International level (except for Tari who has a shot at being decent).
Even India is not going to find a Virat Kohli overnight. So for ZIM to find the next BT overnight via the Rising Stars is unrealistic. BT is a once in a generation player, and that means he will come around once in a generation. RS has been a first class team for just one season. And its produced (or discovered) Blessing. That is more than what I would have expected.

Rising Stars is basically an academy, the rest of the Logan Cup is the second part of the picture. Majority of players will probably come from the LC ranks. The age group U-19 level is the third and final leg of this. This is where ZC has the most work to do, to encourage talented white players to stay. I'm all for fast tracking the Murrays, the Burls, and whomever else just like Taylor and Cremer were fastracked. Best chance of keeping them in ZIM colors.

Sending people for full time academy stints to foreign countries MRF, Aussie or English academies is expensive and would be a wise investment. But it must be very selective so that maybe 50% of those players will end up being leaders of the ZIM team.

ZIM must try to secure A team matches against as many of the top sides, especially away as they can. This is an area Bangladesh suck at also, so its perhaps easier said than done. You see the A teams from SA, IND, AUS, and ENG play each other regularly, so its little wonder they are the best teams across formats. They are almost making it impossible for any team to benefit from their skills or money.
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