U-19 trial tournament,2020

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jaybro
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Re: U-19 trial tournament,2020

Post by jaybro »

ZIMDOGGY wrote:
Wed Dec 23, 2020 10:50 am
I personally think Chatara has been a huge beneficiary of playing against weaker teams than the old guard.
Jarvis’ numbers in ODI are not great if you take out the UAE
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Re: U-19 trial tournament,2020

Post by ZIMDOGGY »

It feels like to me that Jarvis has played more against test teams whereas Chatara hasn’t played as many games against test nations and feasted on associates.
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Re: U-19 trial tournament,2020

Post by foreignfield »

ZIMDOGGY wrote:
Thu Dec 24, 2020 12:49 pm
It feels like to me that Jarvis has played more against test teams whereas Chatara hasn’t played as many games against test nations and feasted on associates.
If I've done the math correctly, Chatara has played 40 % (28/70) of his ODIs against associates, Jarvis 37 % (18/49).

Both have played BD most often out of Test teams (KJ 13 -- TC 11) with similar results.

Jarvis has decent averages in the low 30s from only a handful of matches against India (3) and SL (2), and terrible averages against SA, NZ, WI (4 matches each), he's played Pak only once and never against Aus and Engl. He had only two outings against Afg as he was with Lancs when we played them a lot, but got to feast on UAE (av. of 11 fom 5 matches).

Chatara has definitely feasted on Afg (av. 23 from 13 matches), but he also has outstanding stats against SA and SL (av. 24/25 from 6/7 matches) and his av. of 29 against Pak from a significant number of matches (7) is still very decent. Terrible against India (7) and WI/Aus (2 matches each), he has somewhat suprisingly never faced NZ, and of course England.

Stats are here:
https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engin ... pe=bowling
https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engin ... pe=bowling

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Re: U-19 trial tournament,2020

Post by zimbos_05 »

sloandog wrote:
Tue Dec 22, 2020 2:01 pm

Still waiting for this apocalyptic day that googly has been predicting where we don’t produce any news talent
I always said that Zim will produce talent. There's something in the water that allows us to have naturally gifted sportmen. The problem is that they do not go on to achieve the heights they should because of the management.

Happens in most of our sports. We could have a really strong Rugby side too, but the infrastructure and administration does not help us achieve the heights we could.

With cricket you only need to look at the number of players we have lost to know that the talent is always there. It's a case of having it nurtured and coached properly, and also having the right admin in charge to look over it.

Take NZ for example, their population is 5 million-ish, yet they somehow always produce good cricketing talent and they compete at the highest level. Zim has a population of close to 15 million. Granted it's lower than what it could be due to people leaving, but it's still pretty high and for a cricketing nation, you would expect to produce at least 20-30 good cricketers a year with a population like that.

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Re: U-19 trial tournament,2020

Post by eugene »

foreignfield wrote:
Fri Dec 25, 2020 8:00 pm
ZIMDOGGY wrote:
Thu Dec 24, 2020 12:49 pm
It feels like to me that Jarvis has played more against test teams whereas Chatara hasn’t played as many games against test nations and feasted on associates.
If I've done the math correctly, Chatara has played 40 % (28/70) of his ODIs against associates, Jarvis 37 % (18/49).

Both have played BD most often out of Test teams (KJ 13 -- TC 11) with similar results.

Jarvis has decent averages in the low 30s from only a handful of matches against India (3) and SL (2), and terrible averages against SA, NZ, WI (4 matches each), he's played Pak only once and never against Aus and Engl. He had only two outings against Afg as he was with Lancs when we played them a lot, but got to feast on UAE (av. of 11 fom 5 matches).

Chatara has definitely feasted on Afg (av. 23 from 13 matches), but he also has outstanding stats against SA and SL (av. 24/25 from 6/7 matches) and his av. of 29 against Pak from a significant number of matches (7) is still very decent. Terrible against India (7) and WI/Aus (2 matches each), he has somewhat suprisingly never faced NZ, and of course England.

Stats are here:
https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engin ... pe=bowling
https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engin ... pe=bowling

So basically if we combined Chatara and Jarvis into Tendyle Charvis we would have a pretty good player.
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Re: U-19 trial tournament,2020

Post by ZIMDOGGY »

eugene wrote:
Sat Dec 26, 2020 1:15 am
foreignfield wrote:
Fri Dec 25, 2020 8:00 pm
ZIMDOGGY wrote:
Thu Dec 24, 2020 12:49 pm
It feels like to me that Jarvis has played more against test teams whereas Chatara hasn’t played as many games against test nations and feasted on associates.
If I've done the math correctly, Chatara has played 40 % (28/70) of his ODIs against associates, Jarvis 37 % (18/49).

Both have played BD most often out of Test teams (KJ 13 -- TC 11) with similar results.

Jarvis has decent averages in the low 30s from only a handful of matches against India (3) and SL (2), and terrible averages against SA, NZ, WI (4 matches each), he's played Pak only once and never against Aus and Engl. He had only two outings against Afg as he was with Lancs when we played them a lot, but got to feast on UAE (av. of 11 fom 5 matches).

Chatara has definitely feasted on Afg (av. 23 from 13 matches), but he also has outstanding stats against SA and SL (av. 24/25 from 6/7 matches) and his av. of 29 against Pak from a significant number of matches (7) is still very decent. Terrible against India (7) and WI/Aus (2 matches each), he has somewhat suprisingly never faced NZ, and of course England.

Stats are here:
https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engin ... pe=bowling
https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engin ... pe=bowling

So basically if we combined Chatara and Jarvis into Tendyle Charvis we would have a pretty good player.
Or Tendai Jarvis or Kyle Chatara.

Kyle Chatara actually has kind of a Hollywood ring to it.
Cant say the same about Tendai Jarvis though.

I wonder if there are any white zimbos out there with a full on black name like Tendai, Tinashe, etc

I also wonder if I’ll see the day I see a zimbo with the name Sexmore, Breedmore, pleasuremaker etc.
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Re: U-19 trial tournament,2020

Post by ManOfMystery »

zimbos_05 wrote:
Sat Dec 26, 2020 12:29 am
sloandog wrote:
Tue Dec 22, 2020 2:01 pm

Still waiting for this apocalyptic day that googly has been predicting where we don’t produce any news talent
I always said that Zim will produce talent. There's something in the water that allows us to have naturally gifted sportmen. The problem is that they do not go on to achieve the heights they should because of the management.

Happens in most of our sports. We could have a really strong Rugby side too, but the infrastructure and administration does not help us achieve the heights we could.

With cricket you only need to look at the number of players we have lost to know that the talent is always there. It's a case of having it nurtured and coached properly, and also having the right admin in charge to look over it.

Take NZ for example, their population is 5 million-ish, yet they somehow always produce good cricketing talent and they compete at the highest level. Zim has a population of close to 15 million. Granted it's lower than what it could be due to people leaving, but it's still pretty high and for a cricketing nation, you would expect to produce at least 20-30 good cricketers a year with a population like that.
It’s ok having the raw talent. It has to be nurtured in the right way and by the right people. If that isn’t in place then they will always remain raw and be nearly or should have men!
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Re: U-19 trial tournament,2020

Post by zimbos_05 »

ManOfMystery wrote:
Sat Dec 26, 2020 6:40 pm

It’s ok having the raw talent. It has to be nurtured in the right way and by the right people. If that isn’t in place then they will always remain raw and be nearly or should have men!
That was basically my point, which is why we have seen many players not achieve at the lofty heights they should have. I count players like Hammy, Vusi, Elton, Prosper, PJ, Burl all in that list.

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Re: U-19 trial tournament,2020

Post by Googly »

sloandog wrote:
Tue Dec 22, 2020 2:01 pm
Excellent.
I really hope we manage to keep hold of some of these boys, although I’m not holding out much hope.
Still waiting for this apocalyptic day that googly has been predicting where we don’t produce any news talent..all of a sudden a young quick lad called Erasmus appears and then two lads who can ‘really bat’ crop up..
They haven't just "cropped up", that's not how it works, I've mentioned them before, in fact here's a copy of it -
"There’s Dion Myers (St George’s), also a prospect, but not finished school yet. The only other decent kids I’ve seen at high school level are Erasmus in Form 1, Bhawa, Welch jr, and Bennet in Form 2. Mitchell (grade 7). I’m talking batsmen here."
This "talent spotting" is not rocket science. In a puddle of mediocrity the few good kids stick out like an infected dog's ball.

I also never said they can "really bat!" I said the Bennet boys can bat. Check my post. They've been good since Grade 5.

There will always be the odd decent kid that makes his way, and the miracle is that they come from a tiny pool of a couple of hundred players. Per capita we produce the best sportsmen in the world.
The decline in our school cricket continues at an alarming rate, and nothing that I can see is going to halt it. We are about to start First Term which is three months long and we'll be lucky to see schools play 5 games of what I perceive to be a low standard of cricket. Come and watch a game between Churchill and Prince Edward, our two top government schools and judge for yourself. A covid free holiday in the best climate in the world. You can keep spinning it any way you like but it's not the situation on the ground. The fact is Zim cricket has survived without new blood for years and the reality is that they only very occasionally need a new youngster and we've found one in Wes. There will only be another crisis in 2023 so there's no "apocalypse", I don't recall saying that either? I maintain that schoolboy cricket is declining at an ever increasing rate. It's not a theory, its fact. Even ZC is aware of it and they're powerless to do anything about it because its the school systems that are failing. It won't impact our national side in the short or medium term so its not an issue.

The Bennett lads are twins, one has generally done a bit better than the other, but that may balance out.
Bawa has gone to Eastbourne, Mitchell has gone to Millfield.
Bawa stands a chance of ending up in No Man's Land like Muyeye where he gets the opportunity of Uni and has to make some important decisions. Bawa's biggest looming decision will be whether he plays in the next WC because it will clash with his exams. He will be captain if he is available, he will find that hard to resist.
There are only 6 or 7 high schools with decent grounds. 95% of our schools don't have cricket grounds and don't play cricket. If anyone expects good batters to come from schools that can't even host a proper cricket game they're hoping for a miracle.
Any good prospect immediately has the option of a scholarship to SA or to England and most will take it, not specifically to qualify for another country but to play a higher level of sport. The poorer kids will take it with both hands just to get out of here. Those that leave generally become better than if they had stayed in our school system simply by facing better opposition and playing more games and perhaps having access to more specialised coaching. There's ample evidence of that.
If they haven't left by the end of Form 4 it means they're staying here.
I haven't seen Wolhuter bat so I can't comment, other than the fact that he hasn't scored multiple hundreds against weak opposition. The only thing I can tell you with certainty is that he's no Muyeye or Bawa or he'd be a name already.

I've said that this last u19 WC side will mark a real decline in the standard of our schoolboys and I stand firmly by that.
There are probably about 5 or 6 white boys that will be in the mix and there will be only room for for 2 or 3 max.
That's not faith in a system, that's boys just trying to play a sport they enjoy to the best of their ability knowing full well that more than half will get the axe for reasons other than lack of ability. Would you suggest they have a side bar and decide amongst themselves that only 2 should attend trials as those are the only berths available?

You like slightly misquoting me, perhaps inbox me and tell me what the issue is.

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Re: U-19 trial tournament,2020

Post by ZIMDOGGY »

I think Googly is 98% correct.
The ONLY thing I will go to Sloandogs defence on this is you did say about 5 years ago that the schoolboys system will be completely dead in 2 years and ZC itself dead in 5 years. Which hasn’t happened.

I don’t want to soeak for him but I believe that’s Sloans issue.

Although all that means to me is that you’re right, you just have your timeline of events a bit off.
Brexit and SA issues has slowed it down too as their is more incentive for the talent we have to be retained.

For me, the great death will occur once the next WC campaign is done and our core retires. When this happens we have one ace up our sleeve and one only.
Buy back the diaspora.
Without that, even with Wes, we do not compete with the top 15. That simple. Wes gets an edge early at the crease and that becomes top 20 beating us.
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