How come Namibia doesn't have a quota but Zim/SA have?

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zimbos_05
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Re: How come Namibia doesn't have a quota but Zim/SA have?

Post by zimbos_05 »

TapsC2 wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 4:37 am

Some things take generations to fix. It’s going to be interesting to see what you think if Muyeye cracks the England team before Byrom and Welch. This is a real possibility by the way because the system there seems to have a soft spot for him. Believe it or not it will also be a win for the ECB to have a quality black batsmen.

It’s also interesting to note that the current new crop of potential national team batsmen are black. We all saw Oldknow play alongside Wes, Shumba and Myers. We all know who is better. There is young Bawa as well coming through.

Why I say it takes generations is because you had the BT generation. For me Taibu was just as good as BT but he let a lot of things get to his head but on average the white batsmen were better. Then you have the PJ/Kasuza and Tari/Burl generation where I believe the gap is much smaller.

Now you have the new generation where I believe the black kids are better batsmen. Or at least on the same level. The really good ones (Welch, Muyeye and Byrom) have a black kid as the best out of the lot. The Zim standard good ones (Myers,Wes,Shumba, Oldknow) are majority black. Things are changing right in front of our eyes. The next u19 World Cup squad is going to be interesting
The problem is that we are relying on those who have caused the problem to fix it.

It's one thing to have natural talent, it's another to develop it. Look at how Wes is struggling a bit at the moment.
CholeZimbo wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 6:50 am

So currently the Indian race is the best at cricket and at batting? Listen! Zimbabwe Cricket management has not been the one required to nurture any talent black or white to reach their full potential period! Entry into grassroot cricket for Black SA cricketers remains difficult. Those that have fought their way up have topped world rankings in some cases. Point still remaining it is not about being black or white! No race is superior at cricket than the other. Do not confuse dominance with superiority. BT speaks highly of Wes because he knows when someone is a good batsmen. Why is Wes good? not because he is black, but because he has dedicated himself to the game from a young age, has been disciplined and has trusted the process. A certain Hammy scored a century on debut against a top WI and that was no fluke, and because most here can freely extrapolate careers of young white kids who have left Zim, I can also say had the system not collapsed, Hammy had the potential to be way better than he ended up.

As we have gone to find out with the current young white players in the side, who have been dismal, being white is a mere skin tone to performance in cricket it guarantees nothing.
Dude, stop misquoting me. I'm not saying one race is superior over another, or that black players can't be good. The theory is merely that genetics plays a part and research proves this. Simple.

We all agree that Wes is good. What did that certain Hammy do after he scored that century? We speak so highly of him but he should have gone on to score more than 5 in his test career. He was a product of our best administration and coaching, and look at how he fell so far below his potential.

Zimco
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Re: How come Namibia doesn't have a quota but Zim/SA have?

Post by Zimco »

Yeah just like India couldn't find fast bowlers for a while and people were like they don't have the body type. After investing in it, changing their mindset , and changing the pitches they have heaps.

Obviously I'm not denying genetics has a role in fast bowling on an INDIVIDUAL level or perhaps even batting but having enough people and the right conditions are what required more.

CholeZimbo
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Re: How come Namibia doesn't have a quota but Zim/SA have?

Post by CholeZimbo »

zimbos_05 wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 7:04 am
TapsC2 wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 4:37 am

Some things take generations to fix. It’s going to be interesting to see what you think if Muyeye cracks the England team before Byrom and Welch. This is a real possibility by the way because the system there seems to have a soft spot for him. Believe it or not it will also be a win for the ECB to have a quality black batsmen.

It’s also interesting to note that the current new crop of potential national team batsmen are black. We all saw Oldknow play alongside Wes, Shumba and Myers. We all know who is better. There is young Bawa as well coming through.

Why I say it takes generations is because you had the BT generation. For me Taibu was just as good as BT but he let a lot of things get to his head but on average the white batsmen were better. Then you have the PJ/Kasuza and Tari/Burl generation where I believe the gap is much smaller.

Now you have the new generation where I believe the black kids are better batsmen. Or at least on the same level. The really good ones (Welch, Muyeye and Byrom) have a black kid as the best out of the lot. The Zim standard good ones (Myers,Wes,Shumba, Oldknow) are majority black. Things are changing right in front of our eyes. The next u19 World Cup squad is going to be interesting
The problem is that we are relying on those who have caused the problem to fix it.

It's one thing to have natural talent, it's another to develop it. Look at how Wes is struggling a bit at the moment.
CholeZimbo wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 6:50 am

So currently the Indian race is the best at cricket and at batting? Listen! Zimbabwe Cricket management has not been the one required to nurture any talent black or white to reach their full potential period! Entry into grassroot cricket for Black SA cricketers remains difficult. Those that have fought their way up have topped world rankings in some cases. Point still remaining it is not about being black or white! No race is superior at cricket than the other. Do not confuse dominance with superiority. BT speaks highly of Wes because he knows when someone is a good batsmen. Why is Wes good? not because he is black, but because he has dedicated himself to the game from a young age, has been disciplined and has trusted the process. A certain Hammy scored a century on debut against a top WI and that was no fluke, and because most here can freely extrapolate careers of young white kids who have left Zim, I can also say had the system not collapsed, Hammy had the potential to be way better than he ended up.

As we have gone to find out with the current young white players in the side, who have been dismal, being white is a mere skin tone to performance in cricket it guarantees nothing.
Dude, stop misquoting me. I'm not saying one race is superior over another, or that black players can't be good. The theory is merely that genetics plays a part and research proves this. Simple.

We all agree that Wes is good. What did that certain Hammy do after he scored that century? We speak so highly of him but he should have gone on to score more than 5 in his test career. He was a product of our best administration and coaching, and look at how he fell so far below his potential.
Let me put everything in one question then I will understand your position,

Do you agree or disagree, that if an individual, black, white, Chinese or Indian, has the talent, passion, resources, good coaching, proper board to organize competitive games, will have an equal chance of succeeding (or failing), be it at batting or bowling, whatever they prefer?

CholeZimbo
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Re: How come Namibia doesn't have a quota but Zim/SA have?

Post by CholeZimbo »

zimbos_05 wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 7:04 am
TapsC2 wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 4:37 am

Some things take generations to fix. It’s going to be interesting to see what you think if Muyeye cracks the England team before Byrom and Welch. This is a real possibility by the way because the system there seems to have a soft spot for him. Believe it or not it will also be a win for the ECB to have a quality black batsmen.

It’s also interesting to note that the current new crop of potential national team batsmen are black. We all saw Oldknow play alongside Wes, Shumba and Myers. We all know who is better. There is young Bawa as well coming through.

Why I say it takes generations is because you had the BT generation. For me Taibu was just as good as BT but he let a lot of things get to his head but on average the white batsmen were better. Then you have the PJ/Kasuza and Tari/Burl generation where I believe the gap is much smaller.

Now you have the new generation where I believe the black kids are better batsmen. Or at least on the same level. The really good ones (Welch, Muyeye and Byrom) have a black kid as the best out of the lot. The Zim standard good ones (Myers,Wes,Shumba, Oldknow) are majority black. Things are changing right in front of our eyes. The next u19 World Cup squad is going to be interesting
The problem is that we are relying on those who have caused the problem to fix it.

It's one thing to have natural talent, it's another to develop it. Look at how Wes is struggling a bit at the moment.
CholeZimbo wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 6:50 am

So currently the Indian race is the best at cricket and at batting? Listen! Zimbabwe Cricket management has not been the one required to nurture any talent black or white to reach their full potential period! Entry into grassroot cricket for Black SA cricketers remains difficult. Those that have fought their way up have topped world rankings in some cases. Point still remaining it is not about being black or white! No race is superior at cricket than the other. Do not confuse dominance with superiority. BT speaks highly of Wes because he knows when someone is a good batsmen. Why is Wes good? not because he is black, but because he has dedicated himself to the game from a young age, has been disciplined and has trusted the process. A certain Hammy scored a century on debut against a top WI and that was no fluke, and because most here can freely extrapolate careers of young white kids who have left Zim, I can also say had the system not collapsed, Hammy had the potential to be way better than he ended up.

As we have gone to find out with the current young white players in the side, who have been dismal, being white is a mere skin tone to performance in cricket it guarantees nothing.
Dude, stop misquoting me. I'm not saying one race is superior over another, or that black players can't be good. The theory is merely that genetics plays a part and research proves this. Simple.
We all agree that Wes is good. What did that certain Hammy do after he scored that century? We speak so highly of him but he should have gone on to score more than 5 in his test career. He was a product of our best administration and coaching, and look at how he fell so far below his potential.
The system collapsed around him and there weren't any experienced guys for him to grow and learn around anymore. Both him and BT suffered as a result, one can assume they would have ended with international standard test averages (45+) but they had to be the premier batsmen at very young ages.

Hammy still ended with a test average higher than my favorites, Wishart and Carlisle and a whole lot. And I think Hammy also played a test against most test nations except England and Aus (not sure)

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zimbos_05
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Re: How come Namibia doesn't have a quota but Zim/SA have?

Post by zimbos_05 »

CholeZimbo wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 9:37 am

Let me put everything in one question then I will understand your position,

Do you agree or disagree, that if an individual, black, white, Chinese or Indian, has the talent, passion, resources, good coaching, proper board to organize competitive games, will have an equal chance of succeeding (or failing), be it at batting or bowling, whatever they prefer?
You know I can agree with disagree with you. Research has shown that genes matter. As much as coaching does too, you can't discount genes as having absolutely no bearing.

CholeZimbo wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 9:55 am

The system collapsed around him and there weren't any experienced guys for him to grow and learn around anymore. Both him and BT suffered as a result, one can assume they would have ended with international standard test averages (45+) but they had to be the premier batsmen at very young ages.

Hammy still ended with a test average higher than my favorites, Wishart and Carlisle and a whole lot. And I think Hammy also played a test against most test nations except England and Aus (not sure)
Hammy came in to the side before it collapsed around him. He had enough quality players around him when he started. He also then vehemently continued to support the corrupt admin. Hammys fate is as much his own fault as it is the admin.

CholeZimbo
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Re: How come Namibia doesn't have a quota but Zim/SA have?

Post by CholeZimbo »

zimbos_05 wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 10:05 am
CholeZimbo wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 9:37 am

Let me put everything in one question then I will understand your position,

Do you agree or disagree, that if an individual, black, white, Chinese or Indian, has the talent, passion, resources, good coaching, proper board to organize competitive games, will have an equal chance of succeeding (or failing), be it at batting or bowling, whatever they prefer?
You know I can agree with disagree with you. Research has shown that genes matter. As much as coaching does too, you can't discount genes as having absolutely no bearing.

CholeZimbo wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 9:55 am

The system collapsed around him and there weren't any experienced guys for him to grow and learn around anymore. Both him and BT suffered as a result, one can assume they would have ended with international standard test averages (45+) but they had to be the premier batsmen at very young ages.

Hammy still ended with a test average higher than my favorites, Wishart and Carlisle and a whole lot. And I think Hammy also played a test against most test nations except England and Aus (not sure)
Hammy came in to the side before it collapsed around him. He had enough quality players around him when he started. He also then vehemently continued to support the corrupt admin. Hammys fate is as much his own fault as it is the admin.
I cannot think of anything whose ability has been dependent on race (used loosely as a gene type in this debate) especially in cricket. But if you mean genes in terms of being tall, more masculine, more agile, being quicker, then there is a point there and any race can be strong in any of these. e.g being quick is not limited to black people.

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Re: How come Namibia doesn't have a quota but Zim/SA have?

Post by ZIMDOGGY »

Whoa guys,
I tuned out but this is getting ridiculous.

Lets take 4 steps back and lets look at the quote I said that started this 'debate' that upset chodezimbo.

And im annoyed at having to do this because I'm behind my work, but lets go:

This is the quote:
Screen Shot 2021-04-08 at 15.52.56.png
Screen Shot 2021-04-08 at 15.52.56.png (90.18 KiB) Viewed 121 times
How this has been twisted to a 'how dare you say whites are better genetically at cricket' is absurd.

Firstly, if you are going to misinterpret it, IF ANYTHING, I have said the genetics will help the BOWLERS who i have said will come from the BLACK population going forward. How you got the opposite is beyond me and reeks of an agenda to be frank.

Secondly, that wasn't my point even then.

What I was saying was you can coach a batsmen, but you need to heavily rely on genetics to create a fast bowling force. You cant coach someone to bowl at 140s. if they are at 135, you might be able to, but the average person on the street would struggle to bowl in excess of 105.

So a cricketing culture can produce great batsmen, knowledge, coaching and culture. white zimbos have that in spades, black Zimbabwe doesn't have that yet, but they CANT create a fast bowling unit from a 20k population as its genetic, you need NUMBERS! a high playing pool, and you get the best from that.

Not exactly rocket science.
Cricinfo profile of the 'James Bond' of cricket:

FULL NAME: Angus James Mackay
BORN: 13 June 1967, Harare
KNOWN AS: Gus Mackay

'The' Gus Mackay.

Hero.
Sportsman.
Artist.
Player.

**
Q. VUSI SIBANDA, WHERE DO YOU HOP?

A. UNDA DA ENTERTAINMENT CENTRE*

CholeZimbo
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Re: How come Namibia doesn't have a quota but Zim/SA have?

Post by CholeZimbo »

ZIMDOGGY wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 1:02 pm
Whoa guys,
I tuned out but this is getting ridiculous.

Lets take 4 steps back and lets look at the quote I said that started this 'debate' that upset chodezimbo.

And im annoyed at having to do this because I'm behind my work, but lets go:

This is the quote:
Screen Shot 2021-04-08 at 15.52.56.png

How this has been twisted to a 'how dare you say whites are better genetically at cricket' is absurd.

Firstly, if you are going to misinterpret it, IF ANYTHING, I have said the genetics will help the BOWLERS who i have said will come from the BLACK population going forward. How you got the opposite is beyond me and reeks of an agenda to be frank.

Secondly, that wasn't my point even then.

What I was saying was you can coach a batsmen, but you need to heavily rely on genetics to create a fast bowling force. You cant coach someone to bowl at 140s. if they are at 135, you might be able to, but the average person on the street would struggle to bowl in excess of 105.

So a cricketing culture can produce great batsmen, knowledge, coaching and culture. white zimbos have that in spades, black Zimbabwe doesn't have that yet, but they CANT create a fast bowling unit from a 20k population as its genetic, you need NUMBERS! a high playing pool, and you get the best from that.

Not exactly rocket science.
:lol: Also at work hey. frankly i have had a few posts now on this thread explaining why i disagree with mostly what you have just said now but it is tiring to repeat. So I will stick to what I can back. In a nutshell there is nothing racial about cricketing ability, sorry, and genetics or traits that can be found in any race can enhance your performance e.g being a tall fast baller gives you an advantage. And if Lewis Hamilton can dominate a sport where there was no such culture in his family, this culture thing only makes sense to you hey. But if we focus more on why he got to that level, which ZC should actually focus on, maybe one day we will be on the same page. And also the size of the black population interested in cricket is not as big as you suggest. It is most likely the same number as that of whites interested in cricket before 2003. So the black pool of players is not massive hey.

PS: hope we can still engage on less divisive topics in future on this forum.

ZIMDOGGY
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Re: How come Namibia doesn't have a quota but Zim/SA have?

Post by ZIMDOGGY »

But I’m talking about baked beans, and you’re responding with your thoughts about Brussel sprouts.
Cricinfo profile of the 'James Bond' of cricket:

FULL NAME: Angus James Mackay
BORN: 13 June 1967, Harare
KNOWN AS: Gus Mackay

'The' Gus Mackay.

Hero.
Sportsman.
Artist.
Player.

**
Q. VUSI SIBANDA, WHERE DO YOU HOP?

A. UNDA DA ENTERTAINMENT CENTRE*

Zimco
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Re: How come Namibia doesn't have a quota but Zim/SA have?

Post by Zimco »

Can we move on to something else?

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