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For the purpose of this thread I will take middle order to mean batting number 6 and 7. Normally this is your wicket-keeper batsman and finisher. The keeper is self explanatory, the finisher is a batsman that is able to rebuild an innings should it need to be, or finish the innings, that is maximize runs whilst batting with the tail, some would argue such a batsman ought to come in at 5, I am open to interpretations.

Having set the scene, it is pertinent to note that I have our Keeper up at 5, due largely to our talent pool and his (Taibu) ability.

Incumbent

Craig Ervine[age 26] (34 FC matches, ave 41.62), Chigumbura [age 25] (78 FC matches, ave 33.32), Waller[age 26] (37 FC matches, 41.98 ave), Chakabva([age 24] (50 FC matches, 33.02 ave)) Lamb[age 30] ( 55 FC matches, ave 32.23 )

This order isn’t really set, we have had Ervine (96 runs from 4 innings at 32),Lamb (46 runs from 2 innings at 23) , Chigumbura(5 runs from 1 innings at 5), Waller (101 runs from 2 innings at 101), and Chakabva (42 runs from 2 innings at 21) in this role. Waller has almost claimed the spot as his own. The others have had differing fortunes ranging from mixed to mediocre or lack luster.

Personally I would go with Waller and Mutizwa, Ervine being a lefty has an advantage, but his form hasn’t done him any favours, Chigs as a batsman (in Test for that matter) for me is a luxury we cant afford, a form Chigs on the other hand affords us an extra batsman if he bowls his quota of overs, so I would almost exclusively pick him for the tail or if we want an extra batsam pick him as our fourth bowler, a bit like Kallis for the Proteas and Watson for Australia (huge difference is these are genuine class allrounders), but I prefer Chigs as either a bowler or batsman, and on current form his batting isn’t there. A similar argument for Lamb, i.e. pick him as the lone spinner or a two spin attack in your four man attack but not as a middle order batsman

Challengers

Mutizwa [age 26] (48 FC matches, ave 43),Ewing [age 30] (51 FC matches, ave 41), Matsikenyeri [age 28] (114 FC matches, ave 30.62), Craig Ervine[age 26] (34 FC matches, ave 41.62)

Because the incumbents aren’t settled I’d say the incumbent list should be all the challengers minus Waller who for me should be a certainty, Mutizwa deserves a shot here, and for me he should head the list of challengers.

Ideally as intimated above our keeper would be at 7, but he is of such a quality batter that he picks himself at 5, so Waller and Mutizwa for me here, Ervine there abouts, its a 3 into 2 equation, giving Waller and Mutizwa for me on current and career form.

Up and coming:

Ideas? Kasuza and Kaia come to mind, but I think these guys are suited higher up, but who knows? Moor? Anyone willing to vouch for him in the middle order?

Fantasy:i

Williams... a lefty with rewuisit class already a thread is raging about the problem child who is undeniably gifted

if waller loses his spot next game i will stop following zim cricket. he has shown hes miles ahead of the rest and could be a future leader

It's been very difficult for me to contribute in your series of options because I prefer Vusi to drop down, while I've always preferred to have Taibu play further down the order. He may be dependable, and over a season can probably be our most productive batsman statistically, but he's not a top six batsman - Hami, Waller & Craig have a better technique.

Anyway, I've jotted down the XI I'd like to see play against NZ. Tino is producing the results and has been impressive, so in reality I cannot displace him simply through desire, so he retains his place. Same applies for Jarvis but it's only a matter of time before one of himself and Mpofu steps aside for Rainsford. I strongly suspect it will be young Kyle. Nonetheless, I would actually like to see him&Tino kick on from here because contiunity breeds success. Most of you have finally accepted that Rainsford(and Ewing) is good enough, but I still believe Panyangara(and Matsi) is too good to ignore(probably one of the best Test&bowling averages of compareed to most in our side ) and you will soon warm up to him as well.

Waller has progreesed steadily since the previous Logan Cup season. To be fair he is mature and has been around the setup for a long time so we could say it's about time he got his chance and in all honesty he deserves to retain a place in the side. I doubt he will disappoint anyone. From the outset I've always been keen to see him involved with the Test side, thinking he was more a long format player. After a series of attractive disappointments with just one 50 among them, he finally played an innings of note to prove that he can more than do the job as an ODI player. Some have touted him as a finisher ala Laxman/Bevan, I disagree. He's good enough to be a number 3/4 in ODIs and Tests, and we shouldn't hesitate to promote him ahead of those who don't perform there! That same thread by cock also reminded me why I should ignore sloan's negative views on my preference for the likes of Ewing, Rainsford, Duffin, Panyangara & Matsi.

Again, having a four man attack with Waller as the part-timer allows for Duffin to come in as an opener, instead of selecting a second spinner, that way Vusi can drop one place.

Love him or hate him Elton's place as a number 8 bat is pretty secure. Meth is the heir apparent but the selectors have no faith in him - considering that Heath, his coach at franchise level, put Ncube ahead of him for that Test! In future I would like to see a situation where if Elton is unavailable, meth gets the nod. Fewer than have deserved to get the chance but inexplicably, he continues to be sidelined at the 11th hour!

Ewing's questionable use of his bowlers, and Taylor's thriving under captaincy, not to mention his age advantage in the long-term, has logically meant that contrary to my concerns, Ewing will be just as 'bad' at actual captaincy itself or worse, so not to mention Ewing not having a guaranteed place in the team - Taylor is my man!

You decide, but I believe looking at number 5-10, the side which is a 'replacement' is just as good as the one on the left.

1.Mawoyo
2.Duffin
3.Vusi
4.Taylor(c)
5.Hami /Ewing
6.Waller /Craig
7.Taibu(wk) /Mutizwa
8.Elton /Meth
9.Price /Cremer
10.Jarvis /Vitori
11.Mpofu /Rainsford

If Vusi is unavailable for NZ, then it's wise to select someone who is used to opening - Duffin, and let Hami carry on at three while Ewing slots in at three. Apart from Elton coming back, that's the only change I forsee.

There's no harm in keeping Matsi & Panyangara in the frame, as I continue to do. As far as Vitori is concerned I need a lot of convincing from him to believe he wasn't a one hit wonder and can ctually hold his own at this level.

andybligz93 wrote:if waller loses his spot next game i will stop following zim cricket. he has shown hes miles ahead of the rest and could be a future leader

Rather firm stand you take, I hope you are not implying he is immune to being dropped which should never be the case, even our icon, Taylor. Having said that, I think he would have to lose form terribly for that to happen, personally I'd be crushed, but if he did lose form and because of that lost his place, I would not go to such lengths quitting Zim support, but thankfully I don't see him losing his touch, and he is in fantastic touch and really has earned his spot!

hhm wrote:It's been very difficult for me to contribute in your series of options because I prefer Vusi to drop down, while I've always preferred to have Taibu play further down the order. He may be dependable, and over a season can probably be our most productive batsman statistically, but he's not a top six batsman - Hami, Waller & Craig have a better technique.

...but that is exactly what I want from you, if you disagree by all means say so. That's the contribution I seek...

hhm wrote:
Waller has progreesed steadily since the previous Logan Cup season. To be fair he is mature and has been around the setup for a long time so we could say it's about time he got his chance and in all honesty he deserves to retain a place in the side. I doubt he will disappoint anyone. From the outset I've always been keen to see him involved with the Test side, thinking he was more a long format player. After a series of attractive disappointments with just one 50 among them, he finally played an innings of note to prove that he can more than do the job as an ODI player. Some have touted him as a finisher ala Laxman/Bevan, I disagree. He's good enough to be a number 3/4 in ODIs and Tests, and we shouldn't hesitate to promote him ahead of those who don't perform there!

Interesting point. I certainly think he has the technique and class to be higher up, but if I had to choose someone to finish an innings between, Craig, Hami, Vusi, Waller or even Taibu, I know I would not think twice in having Waller there, and that is where I am comming from, not that he is not good enough to bat higher, but that he is that much better a finisher than everyone else, think Hussey as a classic example of what I'm saying. I wouldn't mind moving him up to 5, and dropping Taibu to 6, but any higher negates his finishing ability...

hhm wrote:Ewing's questionable use of his bowlers, and Taylor's thriving under captaincy, not to mention his age advantage in the long-term, has logically meant that contrary to my concerns, Ewing will be just as 'bad' at actual captaincy itself or worse, so not to mention Ewing not having a guaranteed place in the team - Taylor is my man!

Please forgive me for lumping you with eugene, on the Williams thread, in terms of inflexibility. This statement to me demonstrates maturity of a high order, debating is not about wining all the time, but an honest exchange of ideas, and allowing one to change their viewpoint, if a compelling argument comes along. hhm your stock has risen in my view.

hhm wrote:You decide, but I believe looking at number 5-10, the side which is a 'replacement' is just as good as the one on the left.

1.Mawoyo
2.Duffin
3.Vusi
4.Taylor(c)
5.Hami /Ewing
6.Waller /Craig
7.Taibu(wk) /Mutizwa
......

Agree with dropping Vusi to 3 as discussed under top order and openers, needless to say I don't agree with Duffin, I'd be tempted to move (very reluctantly) Hami to open, and if he fails there...it may be time to try someone else, then drop Mutizwa at 6, with Waller up to 5.


1.Mawoyo
2.Hami
3.Vusi
4.Taylor(c)
5.Waller /Ewing
6. Mutizwa/Craig
7.Taibu(wk)
......

But thanks for your thoughts, and keep them coming even if they are controversial, rather, especially if they are controversial!

I will be looking at 8-11 in a separate thread, so hold the thoughts, (interesting ones I may add! )

Additions
Upcoming: Gary Chimuuta, Ryan Ervine
Fantasy: Sean Ervine(sorry couldn't help it)

FlowerPower wrote:

andybligz93 wrote:if waller loses his spot next game i will stop following zim cricket. he has shown hes miles ahead of the rest and could be a future leader

Rather firm stand you take, I hope you are not implying he is immune to being dropped which should never be the case, even our icon, Taylor. Having said that, I think he would have to lose form terribly for that to happen, personally I'd be crushed, but if he did lose form and because of that lost his place, I would not go to such lengths quitting Zim support, but thankfully I don't see him losing his touch, and he is in fantastic touch and really has earned his spot!

im not saying later on the track i mean if he loses his place for the next odi or test match. the selectors have been known to make ridiculous moves.

andybligz93 wrote:

FlowerPower wrote:

andybligz93 wrote:if waller loses his spot next game i will stop following zim cricket. he has shown hes miles ahead of the rest and could be a future leader

Rather firm stand you take, I hope you are not implying he is immune to being dropped which should never be the case, even our icon, Taylor. Having said that, I think he would have to lose form terribly for that to happen, personally I'd be crushed, but if he did lose form and because of that lost his place, I would not go to such lengths quitting Zim support, but thankfully I don't see him losing his touch, and he is in fantastic touch and really has earned his spot!

im not saying later on the track i mean if he loses his place for the next odi or test match. the selectors have been known to make ridiculous moves.

If that happened Bligz, then you and I should start a petition, walking away won't solve it, but I get your point!

I think Waller at 6 and then 7 really depends on the pitch. If we have to play 5 bowlers and include 4 seamers, then I'd stick with Chigs at 7 right now. If we can get away with 4 bowlers then I'd have Ervine in. If we need 5 bowlers on a flat or spinning track then I'd have Lamb at 7.

Jemisi wrote:I think Waller at 6 and then 7 really depends on the pitch. If we have to play 5 bowlers and include 4 seamers, then I'd stick with Chigs at 7 right now. If we can get away with 4 bowlers then I'd have Ervine in. If we need 5 bowlers on a flat or spinning track then I'd have Lamb at 7.

Good point, but I tend to go with that argument in ODI, where 5 bowlers are almost mandetory, i.e. each bowler can only bowl a maximum of 10, in test however there is no limit so your bowling attack tends to be 4 and not 5, not that it stops teams like Aus (Watson) or Proteas (Kallis) or Pakistan (Hafeez), they all have a batting allrounder to augument their bowling 4, but this is almost a luxury, and with the calibre of these allrounders (battingwise) they can do this without losing on their batting front.

In our case an off form (battingwise) Chigs shortens our batting, similarly Lamb, I don't thing would equate to a form Ervine (or in my preference Mutizwa). But if our batting all rounder was as good as batter 7 then all good, which unfortunately isn't the case.

In ODI then you almost gain by having an allrounder.