The West Indies Cricket Team; Players that should be in

For discussion of any non-Zimbabwean cricket.
sloandog
Posts: 9843
Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2009 11:28 am
Supports: MidWest Rhinos
Location: Manchester UK

The West Indies Cricket Team; Players that should be in

Post by sloandog »

No doubt we've all seen the humping the West Indies bowling has just received from Voges and Sean Marsh. Well it's about to get worse now that Shannon Gabriel has had to fly home injured. Is this really the best the West Indies can muster?

I'm seriously questioning what Chandrika brings to the side. Watched him against the Aussies a year ago on his debut, where he bagged a pair, and to be honest he looked awful, massive flaws in his teckers. Sorry but his stats are awful to say the least. Shai Hope is the same, although, I'll be honest, I think he's got miles more potential than Chandrika; he's only 22 and he looked quit compact against the Sri Lankans.

However are there no better players in the FC system? Kieran Powell was, in my opinion, a classy left hand bat. Barath has always had potential, especially after scoring that fine ton on debut. There's players in this current squad who just are simply not good enough.

The thing is, though, they have a nucleus of good batters here. Kraig Brathwaite is far from the finished article, but with centuries against England and South Africa, coupled with a double hundred against New Zealand, he's going to be a major asset going forward.

Darren Bravo I think is just all class; seriously talented, just needs to go on to make those big scores more often.
Jermaine Blackwood has the attitude and the swagger that is missing, and he can back it up too. That ton against England showed he's got balls, and some of his shots were brilliant.
Jason Holder, though, is the one for me. He bowls well, not overly quick but very consistent and has the potential to be one of the worlds leading all rounders in years to come. His hundred against the English was something to see!

So there's players here to work with, but simultaneously, there are others who shouldn't be in there.

Kemar Roach is a shadow of the bowler he once was, with his pace never getting above 85Mph anymore, opposed to 95mph the last time he toured Australia.

There are two young quicks in the FC circuit who I would like to see; Miguel Cummins and Ransford Beaton. Both 90 Mph, both young, both fit; get them in, as Eugene would say. I saw Cummins bowl in a FC match in 2014 when I went to the Caribbean with my then girl friend and he looked nasty.

In my opinion, the only thing holding back the West Indies is the selection. Get the right players in, and more importantly the most talented, the rest will follow with time

JHunter
Posts: 160
Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2011 12:12 am

Re: The West Indies Cricket Team; Players that should be in

Post by JHunter »

Yes ideally a team of Kraigg Brathwaite, Adrian Barath, Kieran Powell, Darren Bravo, Marlon Samuels, Jermaine Blackwood, Dinesh Ramdin, Jason Holder, Carlos Brathwaite and some new quicks like Cummins and Beaton and some spinners might be a better team than at current. Chandrika was in the Sagicor High Performance Centre programme and did well there and for Guyana. Hence his pick. He may need more time in such a programme and with the A team. Shai Hope has potential but may also need time with the A team.

As noted elsewhere though, Barath and Powell aren't available at the moment. Hopefully they will be in the near future.

Cummins and Beaton will probably get called up in the future.

Kriterion_BD
Posts: 7035
Joined: Sat Nov 07, 2009 8:41 am

Re: The West Indies Cricket Team; Players that should be in

Post by Kriterion_BD »

sloan, you're the only person i know who can compete with me on pace obsession.

congrats on your engagement/marriage btw!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjtuZBykSzM (Noreaga - Blood Money Part 3)

cricket_22001
Posts: 338
Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 11:20 pm

Re: The West Indies Cricket Team; Players that should be in

Post by cricket_22001 »

In the last couple of years New Zealand & Bangladesh have made improvements to pitches for batting. This is borne out in their first class stats. In about 90 years of Plunket Shield it was the finest,generally, to have batting averages over 40. These include Crowe, Sutcliffe, Reid, Scott, Dowling, Turner. Now, their top 5 run getters are Sinclair, Papps, Fulton, Cumming, Harris & Bell. All internationals but not regulars & average over 40 in Plunket Shield. There are others.And the international performances have improved also.
In the first few years of Bangladesh's National Cricket League rarely anyone averaged 40 plus. In the last couple of years, ex international players Shahriar Nafees, Tushar Imran, Shuvogoto Hom & Rajin Saleh have lifted their average above 40. Current internationals Tamim Iqbal, Anamul Haque, Liton Das & Naeem Iqbal all average over 40 (some 50). Plus there has been an increase in double hundreds, with Mossadek Hossain leading the way.
So, where does leave the Windies?
The Windies are now almost regarded as a good will tour by the major countries. And those tours take place in the middle of the year (England excepted). But their domestic season is played November-February/March. So when the Windies host, no cricket is current for anybody except incumbents to have a reasonable opportunity to stake a claim for honors. (Maybe they go into camp!).
So maybe Windies have to bite the bullet & reschedule their domestic season.
Also, even though the top 20-25 players aren't playing domestically, there appears to be an overall improvement in batting performances domestically this season. So have pitches improved?
Spinners feature prominantly in the averages. Now this might ruffle feathers but surely the Windies should play to their strength & embrace the spinners, especially at home. They have done it before in the 50s with Ramadhin & Valentine & no fast bowler of note. Just a thought.
They just have too many inconsistent performers right now. Samuels looks bored, Ramdin & Taylor need to lift & support Holder. The right players is one thing, the right attitude is another thing.

JHunter
Posts: 160
Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2011 12:12 am

Re: The West Indies Cricket Team; Players that should be in

Post by JHunter »

cricket_22001 wrote:In the last couple of years New Zealand & Bangladesh have made improvements to pitches for batting. This is borne out in their first class stats. In about 90 years of Plunket Shield it was the finest,generally, to have batting averages over 40. These include Crowe, Sutcliffe, Reid, Scott, Dowling, Turner. Now, their top 5 run getters are Sinclair, Papps, Fulton, Cumming, Harris & Bell. All internationals but not regulars & average over 40 in Plunket Shield. There are others.And the international performances have improved also.
In the first few years of Bangladesh's National Cricket League rarely anyone averaged 40 plus. In the last couple of years, ex international players Shahriar Nafees, Tushar Imran, Shuvogoto Hom & Rajin Saleh have lifted their average above 40. Current internationals Tamim Iqbal, Anamul Haque, Liton Das & Naeem Iqbal all average over 40 (some 50). Plus there has been an increase in double hundreds, with Mossadek Hossain leading the way.
So, where does leave the Windies?
With the need to improve the pitches for batting clearly. That's long been a talking point in the West Indies. And this year the board stated it would actually look into it for the Professional Cricket League.
The Windies are now almost regarded as a good will tour by the major countries. And those tours take place in the middle of the year (England excepted). But their domestic season is played November-February/March. So when the Windies host, no cricket is current for anybody except incumbents to have a reasonable opportunity to stake a claim for honors. (Maybe they go into camp!).
So maybe Windies have to bite the bullet & reschedule their domestic season.
Umm....how?

June to November is the hurricane/rainy season in the West Indies. It also gets incredibly hot from June to October. November to March is a much cooler time of the year and the weather is far better. April and May are also not that hot but you do get rains during that time as well, but not as much as in the official hurricane season (certainly not as much as in say September or October).

At best, if you want to get weather in which you can be fairly certain of playing out a full four days of cricket then the best months are November to April (maybe May).

Outside of the official first-class season, shorter forms of cricket are played (List A (with the tournament often being in October but now recently more in December/January), 50-over cricket below the List A level and 2-day, and 3-day cricket below the first-class level in the various territories - e.g. Guyana and Barbados do 3-day cricket (3 consecutive days); Trinidad does 2-day and 3-day cricket with the matches being scheduled for Saturday, Sunday and the following Saturday or for a Sunday and the following Saturday and Sunday); Jamaica does 2-day cricket, the Windwards do 2-day cricket and the Leewards do 3-day cricket).

Rather than reschedule their domestic season, there are other options available. Rescheduling the domestic season to fit the international season seems a bit odd really. Which other countries have ever fully rescheduled their domestic season?

Instead I think the West Indies should:

1. continue with the professional first class league. This is important because while other countries instituted professional first-class cricket years ago, the West Indies only really did so last season. Prior to that players were just paid per match and depending on the season they might have played anywhere between 5 to 12 matches. After the season was done, that was it. They would then go back to their regular lives (and jobs in many instances) and play cricket below the first-class level. Within a professional set up they would be paid year round to focus on their cricket and also keep regular contact with their franchise.

2. continue with the double round robin format. Incredibly for many, many seasons the first-class format was single round robin. With 6 teams (sometimes 7) you then only had a 5 matches per team at a minimum. With semi-finals and a final it would mean a couple teams played 7 matches, but the majority of the players would only play (at BEST) 5 matches per season. This is far, far too low. If you check the thread I have on the WI domestic season you can see where last season the performances of the teams improved noticeably by rounds 7-10 of the double round robin season. If there were only 5 rounds this improvement woudl never have happened. With double round robin, then every team plays at least 10 matches for the season now.

3. Improve the pitches for batting. This will build batsmen's confidence and experience as well as make the bowlers have to work harder for their wickets (and thus improve the bowling). The pitch has to be done right so it doesn't become too easy for batting of course, but they need to be better for batting than they currently are.

4. Encourage the territories to professionalize their own multi-day cricket and where possible to lengthen the matches played and to concentrate the player pool. For example, in Trinidad they could encourage that the traditional North v South fixture become basically the premier multi-day cricket series below the first-class level (the last time it was played on a multi-day basis (over 4 days in fact) was in December 2009), perhaps with 2 matches of 3 consecutive days and a final match of 4 consecutive days and with the best players from the 2-day and 3-day competitions being picked for the North and South sides. With the Leeward Islands it could be encouraged to (a) regularly play non-first class multi-day cricket (in recent times the Leewards tournament wasn't even held in a couple of seasons) and (b) encourage all the Leeward Islands to play their own 2-day cricket at least (currently only Antigua I believe and maybe Nevis play any multi-day cricket outside of the Leewards tournament). With the Windwards they could encourage the introduction of a North Windwards v South Windwards tournament consisting like the proposed format for Trinidad of 2 matches of 3 consecutive days and a final match of 4 consecutive days. In Jamaica they could encourage the reintroduction of the semi-pro league that had once been established. The problem in Jamaica would seem to be that with over 20 teams playing in their 2-day league they have issues with the best playing against best. Instead the league is divided up into geographical conferences (to save on money obviously) but this will mean that the strong teams from one area will not face the strong teams from another area. If they were able to reintroduce the semi-pro league (which had I believe the best 8-10 teams from across the island playing against each other and included promotion and relegation) but perhaps divide that higher level competition into geographical conferences to save money (and have matches played over 3 days - Saturday, Sunday and the next Saturday) then the performance of the Jamaican team in first-class cricket might improve. The same would hold true for Trinidad by the way (which has about 18 teams if I remember correctly competing in geographical based leagues for their 3-day championship/premiership) as one can note that in recent times the two most populous territories (Jamaica and T&T) have been middling teams. For Guyana they could encourage the local board to return some form of the current competition (3 counties playing 4 day cricket against each other) even after a new 8-team competition is introduced. For Barbados there wouldn't seem to be much need for any improvements (as both they and Guyana have been doing well in the first-class competition in recent times), though perhaps introducing a 3 team 4-day competition for the best of the best from the regular season). These encouraged improvements would be in addition to the usual trial matches that each territory has ahead of the first-class season.

5. Have more regular A-team matches and tours. Especially in the April to October period.

Also, even though the top 20-25 players aren't playing domestically, there appears to be an overall improvement in batting performances domestically this season. So have pitches improved?
Possibly. I suspect though it is more due to the fact that many of these players are now in a professional set up for the first time in a West Indies domestic competition.

Spinners feature prominantly in the averages. Now this might ruffle feathers but surely the Windies should play to their strength & embrace the spinners, especially at home. They have done it before in the 50s with Ramadhin & Valentine & no fast bowler of note. Just a thought.
Indeed and agreed. With the spinners though WI need to be cautious because Shillingford and Narine have demonstrated that some of the best spinners may indeed be the best pelters rather than the best spinners.
They just have too many inconsistent performers right now. Samuels looks bored, Ramdin & Taylor need to lift & support Holder. The right players is one thing, the right attitude is another thing.
Quite. That's been a perennial complaint from WI fans - even if you aren't a consistent or good performer right now, at least you should have the right attitude 99% of the time, which for whatever reasons a lot of WI players don't. Not even for their domestic teams (contrary to misinformed and popular belief). Folks sometimes think that maybe the players would perform better if they were playing for their territorial teams internationally instead of WI, but what happens at the WI level happens at the territorial level but it just gets reported less because domestic cricket isn't followed as widely around the world as international cricket. So at the WI level you have frequent strikes concerning tours. Guess what? Same thing happens at the domestic level, most notably when Trinidad qualified for the Champions League a few times (with a near strike one time as the players were, as usual, demanding more money from the Trinidad board ahead of the Champions League). This first-class season there was some disquiet and dispute concerning a few Trinidad players who went off to play in the Bangladesh T20 league during the first-class season. The players were incensed that the TTCB claimed that this move of theirs violated the terms of their contract and that as a result they would not be paid as per their franchise contract but would be selected and paid on a per-match basis upon their return. The players (as usual) made noises about retaining legal services over this dispute. And in the last first-class season we saw Dwayne Bravo and Pollard withdraw from the T&T first-class squad (in Bravo's case without so much as even playing a single match) after being selected and then declaring they were unavailable (basically retiring) for first-class cricket (Bravo) or taking an "indefinite break" from first-class cricket (Pollard). That kind of behaviour was just shoddy and unprofessional and would have been frowned upon by the administration in most other countries (Kevin Pietersen can tell them all about that when it comes to the ECB).

It has long been noted that the attitude of many of the current WI players improves markedly with the greater amounts of money being paid over to them. They play with a much better attitude in the IPL and other overseas leagues (though Gayle's attitude at Sydney Thunder, where he continued a lavish lifestyle off the pitch while only averaging 19 on the pitch and not having much runs in total for the season, was noted with widespread disapproval in Sydney overall....this season for the Big Bash League he is due to appear for Melbourne instead of Sydney Thunder which given what happened last season may not be surprising) and they played much, much better when the old Stanford league and Stanford's million-dollar match were being held.

The problem with that kind of financially dependent attitude is that there is simply NO WAY that the West Indies (much less the individual territories) can match the kind of money on offer from places like India, Bangladesh, England and Australia. With 6 million people in the West Indies (the majority being poor or middle income) it means you can't charge the same amount for a T20 match or a first-class match as you would in England or Australia or even India and it means you will never get the numbers of fans necessary to make up for low incomes (as you would in Bangladesh or Sri Lanka and in a way in India or South Africa) to produce the kind of gate receipts necessary to pay relatively huge, huge sums over to the players. In fact, the recent debacle in India was in part due to players like Bravo, Pollard, Ramdin and Sammy being upset that money which was originally paid to the senior players in lieu of central contracts had now been renegotiated by the WICB and WIPA to be paid towards the professional cricket league and giving the 90+ domestic players a year-round salary instead. In most other countries this would be seen as reasonable since the senior players now have central contracts (so paying sponsorship money in lieu of central contracts would seem redundant) and can get bonuses for performance. But the senior players didn't like the idea that the money they were used to getting was going to be possibly reduced in any way, shape or form (despite this being negotiated by their own union) and thus had their hissy fit moment over it.

It is interesting to note that most of these "mercenary" West Indians (as some fans have called them) seem to have little interest in playing T20 domestic cricket in New Zealand (at least this last season I don't remember any West Indians playing for any of the Kiwi domestic teams). This might well be because the amount of money that is on offer in NZ isn't high enough, which in turn might be related to the fact that NZ has a small population (around 5-6 million like the WI) and thus gate receipts and other sponsorship money would be lower than across the Tasman Straits in Australia. New Zealand is richer than the West Indies, so more can be charged per patron to attend the matches, but even this might not be enough it would seem to produce the kind of remuneration package that would make Gayle, Dwayne Bravo, Pollard, Dwayne Smith or Darren Sammy catch a plane to Wellington.

What is most disappointing with this attitude though is that in the West Indies, as per agreement between the various countries, West Indian cricketers (and I believe domestic cricketers) do not pay income tax since the various countries have agreed not to tax persons working in or participating in regional integration initiatives (so CARICOM employees are not supposed to pay income tax either I believe). As a result, WI players are actually not the worst paid players internationally but among the best paid (if I remember correctly, I once saw someone check the figures and WI players were (at the time) possibly the fourth best paid players based on their central contracts and tax-free incomes).

Perhaps in time new players with better attitudes (like Kraigg Brathwaite, Jason Holder, Jermaine Blackwood and Andre Russell) will come up through the system and gradually replace those still around with poor attitudes. But it won't happen overnight.

sloandog
Posts: 9843
Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2009 11:28 am
Supports: MidWest Rhinos
Location: Manchester UK

Re: The West Indies Cricket Team; Players that should be in

Post by sloandog »

Kriterion_BD wrote:sloan, you're the only person i know who can compete with me on pace obsession.

congrats on your engagement/marriage btw!
I'm not engaged brother, but thanks for the future wishes :D

cricket_22001
Posts: 338
Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 11:20 pm

Re: The West Indies Cricket Team; Players that should be in

Post by cricket_22001 »

Thanks JHunter for your reply. You certainly provided an insight to the workings of WI cricket.
When I mentioned about rescheduling the 1st class season, I wasn't taking into account the weather. But there is evidence their international calendar has moved more towards the middle of the year instead of February to April as was the norm. I'm just old fashioned & believe that players should at least get a few games in before the internationals start. I can recall Grant Flower stating around 1997 or 1998 he wished there was more domestic games to work your way into form or to regain form.
'A' tours are obviously the answer & in fact the Windies had Sri Lanka 'A' on tour in June 2013 before the Pakistan tour of July 2013 (shortened to ODIs & 20/20s only but originally tests were included). Also Bangla 'A' were on tour in late May/June 2014 before the NZ tour of June/July 2014 & Bangla again in August/Sept.
I read your comments after DJ Bravo's article. While some lament his & Gayle's absence, there is real evidence that the Windies results were not much better with them in the team. They may have been more competitive but neither player had a "winning" culture.
The fact that Pollard & Russell have not had test careers is a greater tragedy. Both have chosen the shorter formats, all the hired guns are probably good friends & may well have taken on the grievances of the senior members of that group.
I can recall listening to Ian Bishop during the Windies tour of South Africa, & Russell was sounded out for the tests but stated injuries restricted him to the shorter format. Bishop didn't seem ed impressed or convinced. Pollard deserved a chance & despite obvious batting flaws, we will never know.
IPL spokesmen have mentioned how popular the Windies players are in the tournament. Since most of the current crop are over 30, where is the next crop coming from?

JHunter
Posts: 160
Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2011 12:12 am

Re: The West Indies Cricket Team; Players that should be in

Post by JHunter »

cricket_22001 wrote:Thanks JHunter for your reply. You certainly provided an insight to the workings of WI cricket.
You're welcome.
When I mentioned about rescheduling the 1st class season, I wasn't taking into account the weather. But there is evidence their international calendar has moved more towards the middle of the year instead of February to April as was the norm.


I think that's because they are cramming in more games into the same scheduling cycle. In my humble opinion they need to use the FTP as a guide but lengthen the period over which it is played.
I'm just old fashioned & believe that players should at least get a few games in before the internationals start. I can recall Grant Flower stating around 1997 or 1998 he wished there was more domestic games to work your way into form or to regain form.
I most certainly agree. This "cold start" foolishness has to come to an end if there really is any desire for the most competitive and meaningful cricket possible.

'A' tours are obviously the answer & in fact the Windies had Sri Lanka 'A' on tour in June 2013 before the Pakistan tour of July 2013 (shortened to ODIs & 20/20s only but originally tests were included). Also Bangla 'A' were on tour in late May/June 2014 before the NZ tour of June/July 2014 & Bangla again in August/Sept.
'A' tours are part of the answer. Like you noted, it would be good to have an 'A' team tour a host country ahead of an upcoming international tour (so have Pakistan 'A' tour ahead of a visit by Australia to the West Indies for example and be sure to include some of the senior West Indies players in the 'A' team as well as players being considered for selection). Sending an 'A' team on tour ahead of an international tour can also help (e.g. sending West Indies 'A' on tour of say Bangladesh ahead of West Indies tour to India; or even send West Indies 'A' to tour Sri Lanka ahead of a West Indies tour to Sri Lanka).

Another part of the answer is to simply have more tour matches on international tours. In the past (at least up until the 1980s) you used to have 1 tour match/practice match for every 2 international matches (and sometimes the ratio was closer to 1:1 or even slight higher in favour of the tour matches). Now you only have a 1-2 tour matches per tour (sometimes tours don't even have any tour matches) and these matches are much reduced in quality and time. So in 1981/1982 when West Indies toured Australia they played 3 test matches (as well as an ODI tri series involving Pakistan, but ignore that for now) and played FOUR first-class matches (three 4-day matches against Queensland, New South Wales and South Australia and one 3-day match against Tasmania): http://cricketarchive.com/Archive/Event ... 81-82.html

Now compare this to the current tour by the West Indies; you again have 3 test matches.....however there are only 2 tour matches. One was a first-class match against a Cricket Australia XI (but even then about 60% of that squad had never played first-class cricket) and the other is a 2-day match against a Victoria XI. This is ridiculous.

If when West Indies were world beaters they were playing 4 tour matches in preparation for 3 test matches, why the heck would they be expected to be competitive when they are in the doldrums if they are being scheduled 1 and 1/2 tour matches in preparation for 3 test matches?

At the very least my conception for proper preparation ahead of this Australia tour would have been to select a West Indies 'A' team to include Hope, Chandrika, Miguel Cummins, Beaton, Carlos Brathwaite, Dowrich, Warrican and a few other players and send them to Australia for 2 unofficial 'A' team tests against Australia 'A' for the period November 11-November 24. This would allow those players to participate in the first round of the domestic Professional Cricket League (November 6-9), fly to Australia and then play Australia 'A' in two 4-day matches scheduled for November 13-16 and November 20-23. The players who are also selected for the senior West Indies team can then remain in Australia and link up with the rest of the squad that arrives on November 27. Then there should be a tour match against say a New South Wales XI (not necessarily the NSW first XI since the Sheffield Shield will be ongoing, but other NSW first-class players and maybe some of the better Sydney grade cricket players being considered for first-class selection) on Nov 28-29 (if it can't be a NSW XI, then a Queensland XI similar to the NSW XI team I suggested) followed thereafter by a match against a Cricket Australia XI (with at least 70% of that CA XI being players who have already been selected for first-class matches even if they haven't actually played in a first class match).

Thus by the time of the first match you have at least 5 of the test squad members at the time having been in Australia since November 11 and thus having had a month to acclimatize and they would have had 4 matches in Australia ahead of the first test: 3 first class matches of 4 days each and a 2-day match. Senior players like Kraigg Brathwaite, Marlon Samuels and Darren Bravo would also then have had 2 tour matches ahead of the first test: 1 first class match of 4 days and a 2-day match. Kraigg Brathwaite and Darren Bravo both performed in the first match (but in separate innings) and so theoretically they would probably have performed no worse under this scenario. In fact they might have performed better with the extra practice match as well as perhaps performing better if others in the team performed better to provide them with support.

Might this have helped lift the performance of the team to allow it to win? Probably not. But then it would at least have allowed the team management to get a better idea of what might be the best team for the first test (perhaps Gabriel would not have been selected and Carlos Brathwaite would have been chosen instead) and what might be the best role for each player (Hope could have been played as an opener in 2 of the 4 matches and at No. 6 in the other 2, while Chandrika could have opened in all 4 matches). And with that the performance may have been better (even marginally so). Perhaps we might have seen one or two other players supporting Darren Bravo and Kraigg Brathwaite and the result could have been a couple of big partnerships to push the West Indies to 250 or more runs in each innings. They might still have lost by an innings, but instead of losing by an innings and 200+ runs the loss might have been by an innings and 80+ runs. They might even have forced Australia to bat again to score a few runs for victory.

After this I would then schedule a 3-day match against a Victoria XI instead of the 2-day match currently on the books.

This then would mean that senior players like Darren Bravo would have 3 tour matches (a 2-day match, a 3-day match and a 4-day match) scheduled for the 3 match test tour of Australia, while newer players like Carlos Brathwaite, Hope and Chandrika would have had 5 matches in Australia outside of the 3 test matches.
I read your comments after DJ Bravo's article. While some lament his & Gayle's absence, there is real evidence that the Windies results were not much better with them in the team. They may have been more competitive but neither player had a "winning" culture.
Indeed. That's what makes the lamentations so puzzling to me. I well remember West Indies being embarrassingly defeated in England for test matches with Gayle and Bravo in the squad with margins of defeat of a similar nature.

And in the end if West Indies lose 3-0 without Gayle and Bravo or lose 3-0 with Gayle and Bravo, what does it matter if they were present or not? If with their level of experience their mere presence is hoped for so that the losses are more competitive then it is not saying much for either player. It would be the equivalent of hoping for the presence of someone with the experience of Andrew Strauss to the same effect. Players with that level of experience should bring with them a winning culture and attitude and performances competitive enough that winning is a real possibility. That this is not the case with many of the hired guns speaks volumes to how poorly they have been performing.
The fact that Pollard & Russell have not had test careers is a greater tragedy.
Indeed. Pollard especially seems to have had the potential to be a dangerous test player. And perhaps a test career may have positively impacted on his limited overs career by encouraging him to build longer innings. Of all the hired guns, I would say that he definitely would have grounds to complain about selection policy.
Both have chosen the shorter formats, all the hired guns are probably good friends & may well have taken on the grievances of the senior members of that group.
I can recall listening to Ian Bishop during the Windies tour of South Africa, & Russell was sounded out for the tests but stated injuries restricted him to the shorter format. Bishop didn't seem ed impressed or convinced.
As well Bish shouldn't be. That excuse is rubbish:

1. Why does it seem that mainly West Indian players have these magical injuries that somehow restrict them to the shorter (and coincidentally more lucrative) format?

2. What muscles and tendons are being injured that are used in the longer format but not in the shorter format? Perhaps the injury is not physical but financial, like a broken wallet or something.....

3. If as a player, you keep getting these kinds of injuries that are preventing you from fulfilling your potential, would it not be prudent to ensure your injuries heal properly and that you are getting to right treatment for them? Because so often these players claim "injury" but seem fine enough to go diving about in a T20 match (yet standing at long stop where you can essentially rest all day and batting sedately by blocking 4 out of every 6 balls and then scoring a couple of twos is somehow not possible). That to me doesn't wash. Not with Russell and not with Gayle. Gayle recently spoke of one of the T20 matches in Bangladesh leaving him feeling like a freight train had hit him. Now if you feel like that after a T20 match, does that not suggest to you that....I dunno...maybe you need to take a bit longer with your recovery time? Because if I felt like that, I would assume my body is trying to tell me something about the activities I'm attempting.

I recall that once Jerome Taylor had to pull out of a tour of Australia due to a near debilitating injury after bowling only a few balls. Leading up to that sorry show, I remember quite clearly he was having persistent injury issues and I thought to myself that he isn't taking proper care of himself. He was then out of cricket (all forms of cricket) for almost a year or more I believe. His career was actually in danger. But now he's back, having undergone proper rehabilitation. Is he the same? No. But at least his injury issues are much reduced. Had he addressed those injury issues properly and earlier perhaps he wouldn't have been out as long and he might be less of shadow of himself as a player.

Certainly West Indian players do have injury issues. At around the same time Taylor was finding his career in jeopardy due to an injury, Fidel Edwards was also in and out of the team due to injury. The only player who was ALWAYS there was Darren Powell. And he wasn't any good. But he was fit like no other. In fact it was suggested to me that perhaps his fitness and availability was a major reason why the selectors kept going with Powell time after time.
Pollard deserved a chance & despite obvious batting flaws, we will never know.
Agreed.
IPL spokesmen have mentioned how popular the Windies players are in the tournament. Since most of the current crop are over 30, where is the next crop coming from?
Good question. One to which I don't have the answer.

It is also a question I don't see asked very much, likely because very few IPL spokesmen and fans of the current hired guns are even thinking about "who comes after?"

But then perhaps this wouldn't be such a bad thing. If the next crop isn't as popular it might mean that the next crop will take the other forms of cricket more seriously in order to earn their living instead of seeing the IPL as their bread and butter and international cricket as a necessary but unwelcome toll.

ZIMDOGGY
Posts: 6645
Joined: Sun Feb 28, 2010 11:40 pm
Supports: MidWest Rhinos

Re: The West Indies Cricket Team; Players that should be in

Post by ZIMDOGGY »

Friday Dec 18, 7.18am.

Longest post on ZCF record.

Good post though mind you.
Cricinfo profile of the 'James Bond' of cricket:

FULL NAME: Angus James Mackay
BORN: 13 June 1967, Harare
KNOWN AS: Gus Mackay

'The' Gus Mackay.

Hero.
Sportsman.
Artist.
Player.

**
Q. VUSI SIBANDA, WHERE DO YOU HOP?

A. UNDA DA ENTERTAINMENT CENTRE*

ZIMDOGGY
Posts: 6645
Joined: Sun Feb 28, 2010 11:40 pm
Supports: MidWest Rhinos

Re: The West Indies Cricket Team; Players that should be in

Post by ZIMDOGGY »

To aswer your query,
only outright quick 150+ bowlers have a case for quitting test cricket.

The rst are soft pricks or, as you imply, turning they back on the Windies.


I sitll think the truth is in Laras bemoans a decade ago.

Its hard to unite the West Indies when you are trying to squash a few different nations together.


I guarantee Gayle sees himself as a Jamaican, not a Windian, and so forth.
Cricinfo profile of the 'James Bond' of cricket:

FULL NAME: Angus James Mackay
BORN: 13 June 1967, Harare
KNOWN AS: Gus Mackay

'The' Gus Mackay.

Hero.
Sportsman.
Artist.
Player.

**
Q. VUSI SIBANDA, WHERE DO YOU HOP?

A. UNDA DA ENTERTAINMENT CENTRE*

Post Reply