Two Tier Test System?

For discussion of any non-Zimbabwean cricket.
User avatar
brmtaylor.com admin
Administrator
Posts: 7601
Joined: Wed Nov 28, 2007 3:22 pm
Contact:

Re: Two Tier Test System?

Post by brmtaylor.com admin »

I think the ICC should be cautious about handing out Test status. Kenya are the perfect example... in 2003 sure you could have built a pretty strong case. But fast forward to now and you can see why it would have been a terrible idea.

You couldn't give Afghanistan Test status. Geez they don't even have a home ground. Aren't all their players basically Pakistani's anyway?

Ireland, if they are still challenging in 10 years time... I think you could argue a case for them. In 10 years time, they'll have been a reasonably decent ODI side for 20 years. That's a couple of generations of players (not a flash in the pan thing like Kenya, where all the stars aligned but only for about 7 or 8 years). And, to put it bluntly, as a western country they will be in a better position to a) keep the game sustainable from a funding perspective; b) build appropriate infrastructure; c) host tours.

Kriterion_BD
Posts: 4798
Joined: Sat Nov 07, 2009 8:41 am

Re: Two Tier Test System?

Post by Kriterion_BD »

Ireland and Afghanistan are better sides than kenya. Kenya got lucky to make it to the semis of the world cup...they've only ever won 4 games vs the major sides. Ireland have done that, and Afghanistan will soon at the rate they are developing.

The promotion of. Bangladesh had more to do with financial considerations than cricketing ones, but the move is now paying late dividends in cricketing terms as well. The next generation fo afghan players are bettter than the current generation and irish players are all playing in the county system. Both countries IMO are sustainable.
(my cricket podcast) https://aewahid.podbean.com

User avatar
eugene
Posts: 6981
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 11:31 pm
Supports: Matabeleland Tuskers

Re: Two Tier Test System?

Post by eugene »

Test status is hard to judge. With associates it is often hard to tell if they just have a random golden generation or if their success is sustainable. Zimbabwe in hindsight probably shouldn't have been given test status. Cricket was always a white sport in Zimbabwe, the white population was always going to shrink, and their was little evidence that the game was ever going to be taken up en masse by the majority black population.

I wouldn't be surprised to see Ireland decline, how many young players, especially bowlers, of a worldclass level do they have coming through? One could argue Scotland have more talented young players. I have often thought that if anyone should be targeted for test status it is the Netherlands. The game has a long history there, is embraced by much of the local population, and they seem to regularly produce a number of talented players.
Neil Johnson, Alistair Campbell, Murray Goodwin, Andy Flower (w), Grant Flower, Dave Houghton, Guy Whittall, Heath Streak (c), Andy Blignaut, Ray Price, Eddo Brandes

foreignfield
Posts: 4804
Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2011 9:39 am
Supports: Mountaineers

Re: Two Tier Test System?

Post by foreignfield »

brmtaylor.com admin wrote:
foreignfield wrote:I doubt that, as far as Tests are concerned. Zim has not played any Tests against any of the big four since coming back into the fray.
Who is the fourth of the big four?
Because we have played a Test against South Africa. And Pakistan and New Zealand too.
My mistake, make that big three.
Eugene wrote:I have often thought that if anyone should be targeted for test status it is the Netherlands. The game has a long history there, is embraced by much of the local population, and they seem to regularly produce a number of talented players.
I think that is a bit of an over-statement. I believe cricket is rather more of a fringe sport in the Netherlands than in Ireland. It is true that they have a long history though, and the fact that even in the pre-satellite era you could easily watch the BBC in Holland meant that there was always some exposure to cricket there. But the last really good local player they produced was probably Bas Zuiderend who had a bit of success at Sussex before fading away. In recent times they have increasingly relied on players from the southern hemisphere. Shane Warne is more German than many of the current Netherlands team are Dutch.

User avatar
eugene
Posts: 6981
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 11:31 pm
Supports: Matabeleland Tuskers

Re: Two Tier Test System?

Post by eugene »

Alexei Kervezee is very much a product of the Dutch cricket system, despite being from Namibia originally. Dutch cricket has had an active domestic competition for years, it really could be a successful cricket country with investment.
Neil Johnson, Alistair Campbell, Murray Goodwin, Andy Flower (w), Grant Flower, Dave Houghton, Guy Whittall, Heath Streak (c), Andy Blignaut, Ray Price, Eddo Brandes

Kriterion_BD
Posts: 4798
Joined: Sat Nov 07, 2009 8:41 am

Re: Two Tier Test System?

Post by Kriterion_BD »

Ireland has a massive advantage in that the counties develop their players. They are sustainable as they are an athletic nation so long as there is a good enough popularity. As tertiary as the sport may be they sell out 10,000 when they play home ODIs, especially against England. There batsmen is of sufficient qualily to play Tests.

Afghanistan have massive disadvantages for obvious reasons, war, poverty, corruption, etc. However they, like Bangladesh before have thrown their full weight behind the sport and have already shown their aptitude. There bowling is strong enough to warrant Test status.

Contrast to Bangladesh when we first got Test status. We could neither bat, nor could we bowl. Until 2010 we were a worthless side, but now we are a side that just merely struggles instead of gets "ass raped" as Jay (accurately) noted. Ireland and Afghanistan each have half the problem solved.

The game needs expansion, though i'm not advocating for 20 teams to have test status.
(my cricket podcast) https://aewahid.podbean.com

foreignfield
Posts: 4804
Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2011 9:39 am
Supports: Mountaineers

Re: Two Tier Test System?

Post by foreignfield »

eugene wrote:Alexei Kervezee is very much a product of the Dutch cricket system, despite being from Namibia originally. Dutch cricket has had an active domestic competition for years, it really could be a successful cricket country with investment.
I had been under the impression that Kervezee only spent two or three years in Holland before moving on to Worcestershire, but maybe it was four or five. but would he have taken up cricket if he had been born the low countries? I do not doubt that the Dutch cricket system is pretty well-organised and I'm not surprised they easily identified him as an exceptional talent when he arrived in the Netherlands (not sure how old he was exactly, I thought 12 or 13?). If you think of it, the Dutch, Irish and Scottish cricket boards put the majority of the Test playing administrations to shame.

Cricket is, I believe, very much a posh sport in the Netherlands. I'm not sure it will ever become widely recognized as a real Oranje sport like hockey, not matter the investment. As far as I can gather the respective successes and giant-killings of their teams in the World Cups has drawn a very different response in Ireland and the Netherlands. Ireland now has a team the Irish public can associate with, something which is less the case in the Netherlands. But I have to admit that I am relying on anecdotal evidence here.

sloandog
Posts: 7737
Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2009 11:28 am
Supports: MidWest Rhinos
Location: Manchester UK

Re: Two Tier Test System?

Post by sloandog »

Kriterion_BD wrote: but now we are a side that just merely struggles instead of gets "ass raped"
Mate give yourself some credit, Bangladesh are a fortress of a side in home conditions. That's the first big task, to be unbeatable at home. The Aussies did it for years, as did India and Pakistan in the early naughties. Bangladesh just seem to be peeling off talent after talent right now. I mean who's this kid behind the sticks? He looks like a very good keeper, and not even half a year ago I was amazed at the talent of Liton Das as the keeper. Bangladesh don't just struggle mate they win, and teams are taking them seriously now as India did when they sent their near full strength side out there.

Before I watched the World T20 Qualifiers, I thought Namibia was a team on the rise but...jesus, nowhere near what I expected. No bowling that can reach even 78Mph, and their batting was far too heavily reliant on the aging Snyman and the youngster Stefan Baard

Kriterion_BD
Posts: 4798
Joined: Sat Nov 07, 2009 8:41 am

Re: Two Tier Test System?

Post by Kriterion_BD »

sloandog wrote:
Kriterion_BD wrote: but now we are a side that just merely struggles instead of gets "ass raped"
Mate give yourself some credit, Bangladesh are a fortress of a side in home conditions. That's the first big task, to be unbeatable at home. The Aussies did it for years, as did India and Pakistan in the early naughties. Bangladesh just seem to be peeling off talent after talent right now. I mean who's this kid behind the sticks? He looks like a very good keeper, and not even half a year ago I was amazed at the talent of Liton Das as the keeper. Bangladesh don't just struggle mate they win, and teams are taking them seriously now as India did when they sent their near full strength side out there.

Before I watched the World T20 Qualifiers, I thought Namibia was a team on the rise but...jesus, nowhere near what I expected. No bowling that can reach even 78Mph, and their batting was far too heavily reliant on the aging Snyman and the youngster Stefan Baard
We are a fortress in ODIs only. We are pathetic in T20s - not really cricket, IMO, and fortunately its the least prestigous format - but we have not won a SINGLE test match against an established side. Now if anyone else criticizes, I will point to both of the draws against a decent NZ side in 2013 that could have been potential test wins if they were timeless Tests, etc etc.

Now I believe we will be winning Tests at home in the next few years, but until we do, we can't really claim it. We are good enough to win ODIs away from home as well. We should have no less of a chance to win the Champions Trophy than India or Pakistan, and more of a shot than Sri Lanka come 2017 and also the 2019 World Cup.

As an ODI side, yes we are on current form easily a top 4-5 team. But we are bound to struggle at some point, and sooner rather than later. When we do, you can bet the Indopaksters will say Bangladesh are still minnows and what not.

We are moving in the right direction, slowly perhaps, but the light at the end of tunnel is getting brighter. But its not yet bright enough to see clearly.
(my cricket podcast) https://aewahid.podbean.com

JHunter
Posts: 154
Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2011 12:12 am

Re: Two Tier Test System?

Post by JHunter »

brmtaylor.com admin wrote:
JHunter wrote:The Australia tour might well depend on if the Aussies decide to tour or if they are barred from travelling to Zimbabwe over the politics surrounding Mugabe. The Indian and South African tests would be more likely than the Aussie tests while Mugabe yet lives and only as long as the boards involved don't decide to convert the test matches into ODIs and T20s instead.
While the status quo is maintained I can't see Australia not touring on political grounds. We had no problem touring in 2014 for ODIs.
I think England is the only team that still worries about that.

I bet the players would much rather spend a week or two in Zim than in Pakistan or Bangladesh.
Right, I had forgotten about the tri-series. I just couldn't remember Australia actually touring Zim since 2004, but you are right - the tri series went ahead with no problems.

jaybro wrote:The ICC are scared that a fragile 'Test Cricket' will loose it 'prestige' if just handed out to anyone, I feel they're still gun shy after giving BD test status then watching them get ass raped for 10 years and they don't want to make the same mistake again. I actually think giving Afghanistan and Ireland Test status will actually strengthen Test cricket as it will give lesser sides like Zim and BD more options for matches, at this point Zimbabwe are too scared to play the big teams even at home so by giving them more suitable opponents to play they'll be able to better their skills and maybe one day feel safe enough to play the big teams ......
I wouldn't make assumptions about the ICC being scared or not (that's actually pure speculation based off no hard evidence as best as I can see - unless there is a quote somewhere floating around that indicates some ICC official as stating in diplomatic speak that the ICC is always evaluating lessons learned on a continuous basis about accepting an application for full membership or some such.

I do think given test status to Afghanistan (and maybe Ireland) may strengthen test cricket. At the very least it might push the current full members into agreeing a lengthened FTP which might allow for more sensible tours.
brmtaylor.com admin wrote:I think the ICC should be cautious about handing out Test status. Kenya are the perfect example... in 2003 sure you could have built a pretty strong case. But fast forward to now and you can see why it would have been a terrible idea.[
That's not true. In 2003 you could build a pretty strong case for Kenya having more or less permanent ODI status, but that means zilch when it comes to test status since Kenya did not fulfil the criteria for full membership (no domestic multi-day cricket being a big, glaring failure). There was a lot of talk about it, but the talking heads have often been wrong (this should be clear enough when one reads cricinfo - I'll never forget when freaking CRICINFO confused Dominica (part of the West Indies and plays cricket) with the Dominican Republic (not part of the West Indies and plays baseball). And these are people who are paid to know about cricket. I've heard commentators utter fluff before and you can often tell they have no idea what they are talking about but then neither does anyone else so they are never corrected and what they say is accepted as fact when in fact it isn't.
You couldn't give Afghanistan Test status. Geez they don't even have a home ground. Aren't all their players basically Pakistani's anyway?
Two and half years later we still have these misconceptions on this board? Seriously? That's extremely disappointing.

Actually brmtaylor.com admin you are sorta right. Afghanistan don't have a home ground. They have at least two - one in Kabul (Alokozay Kabul International Cricket Ground - opened in 2011) and one in Ghazi township near Jalalabad in the province of Nangarhar (Amanullah Khan International Cricket Stadium - opened in 2011).

The last time I mentioned these stadia (actually in response to a post from you) back in June 2013 I provided links for the images of these grounds. I think this time I will just post the images directly to underline exactly what Afghanistan has:

Image

Image

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08D2bRXQgdQ

Also none of their players are really Pakistanis. While some may have been born in refugee camps in Pakistan, but most of the over 1 million Afghan refugees in Pakistan have not been given Pakistani nationality apparently despite some of them being born there.

In fact out of the 31 players listed as being on the Afghanistan cricket team between November 2014 and November 2015, only one (Gulbadin Naib) was definitely born in Pakistan. A few others might have been. But the vast majority were born in Afghanistan (mainly in Kabul, Khost or in Nangarhar province) and all of them are Afghans.
Ireland, if they are still challenging in 10 years time... I think you could argue a case for them. In 10 years time, they'll have been a reasonably decent ODI side for 20 years. That's a couple of generations of players (not a flash in the pan thing like Kenya, where all the stars aligned but only for about 7 or 8 years).


ODI =/= tests. How decent an ODI side Ireland is has no bearing on if they can actually host test matches and field a test team. Some ODI players (e.g. Kieron Pollard) are good test or first-class players. Others (e.g. Dwayne Bravo) are rubbish at first-class cricket.
And, to put it bluntly, as a western country they will be in a better position to a) keep the game sustainable from a funding perspective; b) build appropriate infrastructure; c) host tours.
True in theory. Yet Ireland (a western country) has let Afghanistan (a war-torn third world country) move into a better position ahead of them in terms of having the domestic popularity and support for cricket and possibly even the appropriate infrastructure. Most of the current full members in any case are not western, first-world countries (only England, Australia and New Zealand are; the other seven are not).
eugene wrote:I have often thought that if anyone should be targeted for test status it is the Netherlands. The game has a long history there, is embraced by much of the local population, and they seem to regularly produce a number of talented players.
Maybe back in the 1960s. Certainly not today. That ship sailed long ago and now the Dutch cricketing community has zero interest in anything other than 50 over games outside of the intercontinental cup - the Dutch board tried to introduce a 2-day competition and the clubs let the initiative die as they were not interested. And the results show this: In the 2007-08 intercontinental cup the Dutch finished mid-table at 5th (out of 8 teams). In 2009-10 they finished 6th (out of 7 teams) and in 2011-13 they finished 8th (last). In the current 2015-17 competition they lost to newcomers Papua New Guinea (who have had experience with multi-day cricket in South Australia) and their win against Scotland was in fact their first win in the intercontinental cup since April 6, 2008 (against the UAE).

Outside of the occasional county contract or lower level multi-day stint in English cricket and experience in multi-day cricket from their home countries like Australia and Pakistan, most Dutch players don't have much practice with multi-day cricket and would seem to have less recent practice with that format than Irish, Afghan, Namibian or even Papuan players.
Kriterion_BD wrote:
We are a fortress in ODIs only. We are pathetic in T20s - not really cricket, IMO, and fortunately its the least prestigous format - but we have not won a SINGLE test match against an established side. Now if anyone else criticizes, I will point to both of the draws against a decent NZ side in 2013 that could have been potential test wins if they were timeless Tests, etc etc.

Now I believe we will be winning Tests at home in the next few years, but until we do, we can't really claim it. We are good enough to win ODIs away from home as well. We should have no less of a chance to win the Champions Trophy than India or Pakistan, and more of a shot than Sri Lanka come 2017 and also the 2019 World Cup.

As an ODI side, yes we are on current form easily a top 4-5 team. But we are bound to struggle at some point, and sooner rather than later. When we do, you can bet the Indopaksters will say Bangladesh are still minnows and what not.

We are moving in the right direction, slowly perhaps, but the light at the end of tunnel is getting brighter. But its not yet bright enough to see clearly.
Well said and I agree. And I believe the other sides with problems (WI, Zimbabwe) should keep that in mind as well when they go on the right track - it will be a slow process, but one which will bear fruit in time.

Post Reply