Cheating Australians

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jaybro
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Re: Cheating Australians

Post by jaybro » Wed Mar 28, 2018 9:55 pm

1.G.Flower 2.B.Taylor 3.M.Goodwin 4.A.Flower 5.D.Houghton 6.N.Johnson 7.T.Taibu 8.P.Strang 9.H.Streak 10.R.Price 11.H.Olonga 12.A.Campbell

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CrimsonAvenger
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Re: Cheating Australians

Post by CrimsonAvenger » Thu Mar 29, 2018 12:57 am

jaybro wrote:
Wed Mar 28, 2018 8:15 pm
CrimsonAvenger wrote:
Wed Mar 28, 2018 3:16 pm
This is as bad as what Cronje did with his teammates, Salman Butt with his team.
Please are you serious ???? See this what Im talking about laying the boot in, Now ball tampering is as bad as match fixing

Although for ball tampering you get suspended for 1 match and match is life suspension

But yeah i guess it's just as bad
You are missing the context. Pretty much every incident reported till now was an individual (even if it was the skipper incidentally) working with the ball using questionable substances (and there are different ranges of such substances there). But this is a captain hatching a plan in the dressing room, coming out prepared and executing it by involving more vulnerable members of the team. While all other previous incidents could also have played out on these lines, they did not. The skipper (I hate saying that again and again while it was more Warner's fault) made this his gameplan and included others in it. While the crime itself is not as big as match fixing, the way it was organized by a national team skipper is comparable.
jaybro wrote:
Wed Mar 28, 2018 8:27 pm
Let me remind you the great Rahul Dravid was caught clear as day putting a lolly on the ball and he didn't even miss a match !!!!!!
Yeah, that's where the issue is. In my view, there are at least 4 types of "tampering" and they need to be classified as such:

1. Mints, jellies lollies, etc. that go with saliva: (Faf, Dravid):
This in my view is the most harmless version and if you say this is prohibited, you'll have to prohibit applying saliva too. Players can finish eating those things and apply saliva while the last traces are still in their mouth. Difficult to prove anything. And relatively harmless anyway.

2. Excessive rolling of the ball on the ground: (old English strategy)
Well, this can be kept in check on field, the umpires need to pay regular attention and mostly can be negated. Still not the worst form of tampering.

3. Picking seam, biting the ball (Philander, Tendulkar, Afridi):
This is where it starts getting dangerous. And must be punished. Players have no business altering the seam of the ball intentionally. This does not amount to "shining" or "roughening".

4. Using "foreign objects" (The current Aussie saga, Pakistan teams of the past):
Using bottle caps, sandpapers and what not. These are the real sharp foreign objects. They can massively alter the condition of the ball in an accelerated fashion. Most offensive and must receive the highest punishment among all.

I'm not an expert at how the ball gets affected overall but this kind of common sense based detailing out is what is necessary and what Faf was asking iCC to come up with so that there is more clarity.

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eugene
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Re: Cheating Australians

Post by eugene » Thu Mar 29, 2018 2:34 am

I wonder what would happen if ball tampering was completely legalized, except perhaps for the sand paper. Might make the game quite interesting.
Neil Johnson, Alistair Campbell, Murray Goodwin, Andy Flower (w), Grant Flower, Dave Houghton, Guy Whittall, Heath Streak (c), Andy Blignaut, Ray Price, Eddo Brandes

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jaybro
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Re: Cheating Australians

Post by jaybro » Thu Mar 29, 2018 3:43 am

Crimson I respect you but if you think these sides aren’t talking about it in the dressing room then you’re extremely naive

Yes you can argue that the Australian version of tampering was the worst of all and I would agree 110% and I’m not defending the players I’m defending the country and population who have copped an absolute hiding on social media.

Fact is as Australian’s we always excepted the way our cricketers behaved because although they played hard sometimes too hard they always played fair, up until this point they always played fair that’s why the Australian public have reacted so abruptly to this because it’s against everything we stand for as a sporting nation.

News is filtering through that this was a plan hatched by Bancroft and Warner and although he wasn’t apart of planning it Smith knew something was up and didn’t try and stop it ( source Jim Maxwell much respected and experienced Australian cricket commentator ).

The point still stands the punishments handed out are unprecedented and you can’t argue Cricket Australia has taken this very seriously.

I find it funny that people here were calling for big penalties because this was the ‘crime of the century’, and then after CA handed out the lengthy suspensions they claimed “They only did it to save face” 😂😂😂😂😂

Damned if you do damned if you don’t 😂😂😂😂😂
1.G.Flower 2.B.Taylor 3.M.Goodwin 4.A.Flower 5.D.Houghton 6.N.Johnson 7.T.Taibu 8.P.Strang 9.H.Streak 10.R.Price 11.H.Olonga 12.A.Campbell

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CrimsonAvenger
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Re: Cheating Australians

Post by CrimsonAvenger » Thu Mar 29, 2018 5:04 am

jaybro wrote:
Thu Mar 29, 2018 3:43 am
I’m defending the country and population who have copped an absolute hiding on social media.
Yeah, no reason to make fun of / unfairly criticize an entire country for this incident.
jaybro wrote:
Thu Mar 29, 2018 3:43 am
Crimson I respect you but if you think these sides aren’t talking about it in the dressing room then you’re extremely naive
Of course they may do that too. But from what has been found out so far in the entire history of ball tampering saga, this is only the second time after the Pakistani team in the past that we have seen a team / group of people identified as culprits as against an individual doing it. And in Pakistan's case, they got away with not much evidence at that time.

So, this, in a sense, is the only proven case of tampering where the leader of the team coerced team member(s) to do something not in the spirit of the game. Hence the widespread anger in my view. If we are going to blame the South Africans or English or whoever else, we need to come up with damning evidence similar to this. "Everyone is obviously doing it and discussing it" is not an excuse for people who were caught and accepted their guilt.
jaybro wrote:
Thu Mar 29, 2018 3:43 am
The point still stands the punishments handed out are unprecedented and you can’t argue Cricket Australia has taken this very seriously.
Well done to CA. They must be commended for the stance taken.

Having said all that, my outrage is not restricted only to this Aussie incident. I'm equally critical of Kohli's on field shenanigans, and as a matter of fact, what Shakib / Nurul did in SL last month, etc. Its a sport played for enjoyment ultimately. If people bring in cheating, unruly behavior, what's the point of following this game?

I think only NZ and Zim can hold their heads high when it comes to overall spirit of cricket, probably followed by SL.

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jaybro
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Re: Cheating Australians

Post by jaybro » Thu Mar 29, 2018 5:24 am

Interestingly new Australian Test captain Tim Paine ( can’t believe this guy is the test captain !!! What a turn around for him ) has identified the way New Zealand play their cricket as the way back to redemption for Australia

Personally I doubt it will last, Australia has played their cricket one way for 100 years and I can’t see it changing.

It’s a different culture here we take the piss out of each other non stop and some of the best memories I have of going to sporting events is my mates and I heckling the opposition. It’s just the way it is here it’s no big deal for us but obviously other cultures and countries don’t like it and don’t see it the same way.

The Australian cricket team will always be sledgers, but hopefully never cheaters again
1.G.Flower 2.B.Taylor 3.M.Goodwin 4.A.Flower 5.D.Houghton 6.N.Johnson 7.T.Taibu 8.P.Strang 9.H.Streak 10.R.Price 11.H.Olonga 12.A.Campbell

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Re: Cheating Australians

Post by Jemisi » Thu Mar 29, 2018 6:49 am

What I can't believe is that the bowlers knew nothing.

I accept they may have had nothing to do with Warner's initiatives but they must have known something was up.

When I bowled I knew every time I was walking back to the mark how the ball had changed since my previous delivery. I was cross if one of my teammates had hurt the shine. I could see the impact of each ball and each shot. This is obviously easier with the new ball and harder at the 65 over mark but still...

If they did something stupid when I was trying to get it to reverse I would be cross too.

I just can't see how the bowlers haven't been aware of this during Australia's reverse swing era.

foreignfield
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Re: Cheating Australians

Post by foreignfield » Thu Mar 29, 2018 7:08 am

jaybro wrote:
Wed Mar 28, 2018 8:27 pm
foreignfield wrote:
Wed Mar 28, 2018 12:16 pm


I find the outcry in Australia hilarious tbh, and it smacks of the same hypocrisy the Australian cricket team has been guilty of with their holier than thou attitude which badly masks their bully in the playground behaviour which has been part of the Australian cricket DNA for longer than I follow cricket. I don't know in which parallel universe the Australian public watches their cricket -- and I won't deny that some great sportsmen have played for OZ even recently -- but the assumption that the rest of the cricket world are either dirty cheats or not man enough to stand up to the highest Australian standards of morality and virility is laughable. It's probably the same parallel universe in which it is okay and manly and matey to shower the opposition seven hours a day with bollocking, but cry foul when the baggy greens get a bit of payback abroad.

The bans are harsh, I agree -- but more than anything they serve to keep up appearances. The culprits have been identified and sanctioned and Australia can go on pretending that no one else plays cricket in the right spirit. The second quote, jaybro, suggest to me that you are already riding on that bandwagon.
Plenty of assumptions there FF

There is no doubt the Aussie cricket team are a bunch of cry babies and sooks and yes the they carry the 'Holier than thou attitude' but no one in Australia is denying that and the current team is on the nose big time even before this tour, so you're wrong about claiming us Australian fans are delusional, we know the score we know Warner and Smith are dickheads

I will still argue the punishments are UNPRECEDENTED and no other country would have done this, the ICC only wanted to suspend Smith for 1 match FFS and we banned him from all cricket for a year !!!!

Pakistan have let Amir back for match fixing !!!! In Autsralia anyone caught fixing and sporting games get life bans no question, we had a few NRL players banned for life a couple years back.

Also the argument that the Aussie ball tampering was worse because it was 'premeditated' is as you would say FF 'laughable' :lol: :lol: :lol:

Do you think Faf just decided on the field 'Hey i might stick this mint in my mouth on the ball' or 'Hey I'll use this zipper on my pocket to rough the ball' ??? C'mon who's in denial now ???

Let me remind you the great Rahul Dravid was caught clear as day putting a lolly on the ball and he didn't even miss a match !!!!!!


You are all letting your hatred for the Australian players cloud your judgement claiming what they did was any worse than what has been done before
Yes, plenty of assumptions there jaybro. Please quote where I said any of those things you mentioned in your comments (highlighted in italics). You have a way -- and not only on this subject -- of generalizing what you have picked up over several pages of a thread and then "laying the boot in" as you would say and accuse all and everyone of being deluded or non-sensical (as another example take the "Should Streak resign" topic where you cried out how people were not offering alternatives when clearly at least half of those aswering the question in a mildly affirmative way, like sloandog and me, did exactly that). In this particular case you accuse me directly of saying things I never said.

If anything I criticized the Australian public "laying the boot in" on their players. It seems to me that the reaction in Australia is much harsher than anywhere else (and where it's just as harsh it's a sort of payback for the way Australians have accused everyone else as cheats over the years--a payback I do not condone). For me the ICC penalties are sufficent.
Fact is as Australian’s we always excepted the way our cricketers behaved because although they played hard sometimes too hard they always played fair, up until this point they always played fair that’s why the Australian public have reacted so abruptly to this because it’s against everything we stand for as a sporting nation.
This is what I commented on: It's is unhealthy to base national pride and a nation's identity too much on the behavior of young professional sportsmen. I grant you that the Australian public knows that Warner and Smith are "dickheads" -- so maybe this was the straw that broke the camel's back. The delusion I mean is that despite the way this team and earlier incarnations have been playing the game the Australian public has always claimed moral superiority over anyone else and places their cricket on a pedestal where "cheating" is absolutely un-Australian and warrants the harshest penalities, as if it didn't happen elsewhere as well as you have rightly pointed out.

What Australia considers as "playing hard but fair" is considered to be unfair by others. The Australian reaction to this has always been that that's the way it is, "that's how we are". You will find that that is not a very good argument when interacting with other cultures (the thing international sport is all about).

foreignfield
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Re: Cheating Australians

Post by foreignfield » Thu Mar 29, 2018 7:12 am

CrimsonAvenger wrote:
Thu Mar 29, 2018 5:04 am
jaybro wrote:
Thu Mar 29, 2018 3:43 am
I’m defending the country and population who have copped an absolute hiding on social media.
Yeah, no reason to make fun of / unfairly criticize an entire country for this incident.
Absolutely. I hope that you dont' read my comments in that light, jaybro. Social media generally brings out the worst in people and should better be ignored. The reaction in the media which I follow has been very balanced.
Having said all that, my outrage is not restricted only to this Aussie incident. I'm equally critical of Kohli's on field shenanigans, and as a matter of fact, what Shakib / Nurul did in SL last month, etc. Its a sport played for enjoyment ultimately. If people bring in cheating, unruly behavior, what's the point of following this game?
I couldn't agree more.

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jaybro
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Re: Cheating Australians

Post by jaybro » Fri Mar 30, 2018 2:46 am

The only thing I called you out on FF was claiming Australian fans were delusional, and reading your first paragraph to me that’s what you were indicating am I wrong?

Another thing when I say “certain people here on the forum” that doesn’t mean everybody so I’m not “generalising” the entire forum. I noticed you and Sloan want Garry Brent as coach but there are people on the forum who just like sitting back after the fact and complain about all the things we did wrong without throwing up solutions.

I’ll start naming names now so not to offend the entire forum if you wish ?
1.G.Flower 2.B.Taylor 3.M.Goodwin 4.A.Flower 5.D.Houghton 6.N.Johnson 7.T.Taibu 8.P.Strang 9.H.Streak 10.R.Price 11.H.Olonga 12.A.Campbell

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