Tristan Holme Response

[jaybro]

Yeah thanks americanzimfan much appreciated

[Conant]

Taylor's keeping is certainly invaluable and means we aren't carrying a passenger with the bat in limited overs cricket like Moor or Chakabva seem to be most of the time. Murray is still very young (19) and could be groomed as Taylor's successor.

Time will tell. Burl too was talked up but he’s looked extremely out of depth.

We watched Murray keeping at that last Word Cup didn't we? No doubt about those hands there.

[/quote] =eugene post_id=108444 time=1502815142 user_id=82]Taylor's keeping is certainly invaluable and means we aren't carrying a passenger with the bat in limited overs cricket like Moor or Chakabva seem to be most of the time. Murray is still very young (19) and could be groomed as Taylor's successor.[/quote]

Including Chakabva in this post is irrelevant because as we all know the selectors finally realised a long time ago that they cant play him in T20s. Peter Moor is the only passenger here, leave Chakabva out of it, me thinks.

[jaybro]

Hey americanzimfan can we ask TH if the possibility of KJ or BRMT getting signed as overseas has been spoken of? Since Zim don't play as many fixtures as the rest of the nations these guys would actually be available for more games than a Pujara or a Wagner type player?

[Mueddie28]

Yeah thanks americanzimfan much appreciated

Tristan Holme any coaches you might recommend for Zimbabwe A squad because Hondo is a complete failure

[americanzimfan]

I'll start up a new thread shortly for Tristan. He enjoyed doing it.

[Kriterion_BD]

1) Given our performance in the last test against Sri Lanka and their current performance against India right now, is Zimbabwe still up for the test league?

Has it been finalized?

Surely, we are not that far off from teams like Sri Lanka and the West Indies. We can't get better unless we face the Herath's of this world.

Tristan Holme: It's a tough one. I got grief on Twitter for mentioning that Sri Lanka are a fading force when Zim won the ODI series, but we're getting a good idea of how poor they are now.

That doesn't need to take away from Zimbabwe's achievement and where they are at though. Zimbabwe's cricket system is still far from perfect, but improvements have been made in the last 18 months and we're starting to see that on the field. Now more than ever we deserve some opportunities.

This time last year I would have taken a demotion - even to sit with Afghanistan and Ireland. It’s not like we were playing Test cricket anyway. Now that we seem to be helping ourselves, we’re probably earning the help of the teams higher up. What that means in a Test league remains to be seen. It was put on the back burner during the ICC meeting in June because of the focus on a new ICC constitution and funding model, but I think we’ll get a clearer idea at the next meeting (in October I think) of what the Full Members are planning. I know that ZC put together a lengthy document for the ICC that explained why they should not be demoted into a bottom three. I don’t expect that to happen anymore - I think they will find a different model.

Interesting point raised by TH.

The 9-3 league concept is only the second best idea, IMO, behind the 6-6 parallel conference system. However, that idea was scrapped because there is no guarantee the Big 3 would always be drawn in the same conference. Previously the 7-5 league system was opposed by the SL and BD boards and probably the WI as well. Everyone had written the Windies off, but in the past year they have shown that their new generation of players can compete.

Right now, there isn't a huge gap between teams ranked #1 to #9. None of the teams do very well overseas, but all of them compete at home. Even Sri Lanka who look hopeless right now, just need a turning pitch at home to beat any non-Asian side.

In addition to that, the ICC did come out with a preliminary schedule for the 9 team league in June, so it will be interesting to see if they stick to it and what final decisions, if any, are made in October.

I don't see the 9 team league expanding to a 10 team league because I don't think almost winning a game against arguably the weakest of the 9 sides makes a forceful enough argument.

[pariah]

The 9-3 league concept is only the second best idea, IMO, behind the 6-6 parallel conference system. However, that idea was scrapped because there is no guarantee the Big 3 would always be drawn in the same conference. Previously the 7-5 league system was opposed by the SL and BD boards and probably the WI as well.

Right now, there isn't a huge gap between teams ranked #1 to #9. None of the teams do very well overseas, but all of them compete at home.

Many sides are aware of this and have made it their strategy. Ravi Shastri has encouraged almost all Indian player to go to England and play County cricket. SA is already the worst place for batsmen against fast bowling, there's Newlands for swing, plus because of transformation, players who are exposed to subcontinent conditions eg Bavuma, Ramela, Zondo etc who can grind, I think SA will stop drawing but start winning Series away from home.

I don't see the 9 team league expanding to a 10 team league because I don't think almost winning a game against arguably the weakest of the 9 sides makes a forceful enough argument.

Sometimes I don't think you personally want to see a strong Zimbabwe. Secretly I always sense that you celebrate at its losses and find their successes to accept. It's not the same as someone accusing me of not giving Cremer or Sean credit or your lowly view of Hami, it's broader than than that. The strange thing with you is that this particular Zimbabwe team has been filled with players that you like and rate, is mostly non-black(even worse if Jarvis and hopefully Taylor joins), and has had the worst results for Zimbabwe since Zim cricket's most darkest days of the mid-2000s.

One thing that we all have to accept is that the world is changing. China overtaking the States won't stop there. India will be next, while countries like Brazil, Indonesia and even Nigeria will be in and around the top 10. As well as your Bangladesh and Pakistan. The ICC are no doubt aware of this which is why they try to invest cricket in those areas even today. Yes they will talk tough, but Zimbabwe is going nowhere. You may not realise it, but ICC needs Zimbabwe more than Zimbabwe needs ICC. ICC had an opportunity in the mid-2000s when Zimbabwe was at its worst ever but they did nothing? Why? Because they can't! International sport needs a truly African element to be international(don't even say "but South Africa is...")

[Kriterion_BD]

Pariah, you are quite correct in that I don't root for the Zimbabwe team. I don't feel they deserve a spot in the top league and I would be slightly disappointed if they were for the following reasons.

1) The ZC does not care about Zimbabwean cricket, so why should anyone else apart from actual Zimbabweans? If the ZC cares about Test cricket enough to want to join the top league, why did they cancel the 2013 Sri Lanka tour? Why did they agree to swap the 2nd Test in SL for a couple extra ODIs?

2) Test cricket is supposed to be a test of cricketing skills. You are supposed to put your best XI out on the park. When there guys like Taylor, Jarvis, Ballance, Cartwright, De Grandholme amongst others playing elsewhere, the motivation to play/watch Zimbabwe drops dramatically. Do you think England would like to play Australia A in the Ashes if Smith, Warner, Starc, and Lyon hadnt agreed to the new MOU and quit the team?

3) One might argue that Bangladesh were even worse than present day Zim, and that is true. But that was past tense and the general feeling was they could be decent eventually in the forseeable future. One could argue the West Indies struggled for over a decade, but in the past year the Windies have seemed to unearth a young generation of players who are doing well.

4) There is reason to believe that Afghanistan may actually be the 10th strongest Test side, and many including myself would give the Irish a 50-50 shot at claiming the 11 spot.

All that being said, I have always maintained the best plan was the 6-6 twin conference system because thats the only plan in which all 12 Test nations have the same chance at winning the championship, which is the whole point of a league. As long as Zimbabwe stays in the top 12, I have no issues. There is no rule that all teams in a league have to be strong sides.

I was actually supporting Zimbabwe in 2011-2013 when things looked good and Zimbabwe were winning games and competing hard. But soon after things fell apart.

Not many teams play cricket to begin with, we need as many serious and committed sides as we can. Its why I root for Nepal even though they are presently light years away even from Zimbabwe. But Nepal could close the gap in 20 years time.

[TapsC]

The West Indies are improving simply because they play a lot more than us. That's the only way you can improve and that's why the test league for me is counter-productive. I have no doubt in my mind that if we played 3 tests against this Sri Lanka we would have won 1. I also believe we will beat the west indies at least once but I fear that ZC will convert one test into 3 ODIs to make more money. If the ICC really wanted to help us they would subsidize all our test matches so that we break even. you cant exactly blame the board for making $4 million by playing limited overs games against india instead of tests.. in the end they need money to survive. for me the big 3 plus SA as well as NZ and Pakistan recently are the real test forces. I honestly wouldn't expect Bangladesh, Sri Lanka or the West Indies to white wash us at home so I don't believe they should be put in a higher league. in the end every game has minnows. As long as we push tests up to the 5th day then we should be allowed to be in the same league as some of these countries.

[Kriterion_BD]

The West Indies are improving simply because they play a lot more than us. That's the only way you can improve and that's why the test league for me is counter-productive. I have no doubt in my mind that if we played 3 tests against this Sri Lanka we would have won 1. I also believe we will beat the west indies at least once but I fear that ZC will convert one test into 3 ODIs to make more money. If the ICC really wanted to help us they would subsidize all our test matches so that we break even. you cant exactly blame the board for making $4 million by playing limited overs games against india instead of tests.. in the end they need money to survive. for me the big 3 plus SA as well as NZ and Pakistan recently are the real test forces. I honestly wouldn't expect Bangladesh, Sri Lanka or the West Indies to white wash us at home so I don't believe they should be put in a higher league. in the end every game has minnows. As long as we push tests up to the 5th day then we should be allowed to be in the same league as some of these countries.

Nothing wrong with the boards looking to make money. The BCB has cancelled a lot of Test matches in the past several years (2010 series vs NZ where we possibly could have recorded our first Test win given the poor form NZ was in at the time), 2011 Australia Tests got converted to 3 ODIs (although that was apparently at the behest of the CA). But with ZC, the problem is they were making money so the admins could steal it. Thats not cool.

I fully understand thats not a fault of the Zimbabwe fans or players, and the argument there is why should they be made to suffer? That is a very vaild point.

But my personal counterpoint, is that as someone who is not a Zimbabwe fan, it doesn't seem appealing into go out of the way to fit an extra team, into an already cramped schedule, even at the expense of potentially better teams. For example Ireland (in the recent past) and Afghanistan have done more with less. It doesn't seem fair to punish them for having better efficiency than Zimbabwe. Afghanistan haven't been blessed with full member fixtures or massive ICC funding, but whenever they'd had the opportunity they've taken it as best they could.

True the Windies play a lot more, but thats also more opportunity for them to lose...and they do. But again Zimbabwe haven't done themselves a favor because they've had 4 or 5 series vs Afghanistan, and haven't won any of them. On the basis of recent evidence, more matches, is not evidence of more opportunity.

The gains from the Sri Lanka series are a big positive. But is that enough to justify inclusion with the other 9?

The ideal situation would be to have 12 teams all in one league. I've always supported that, every since the time that "2 tier" talk first started as a means of excluding Bangladesh. If thats not possible - as the ICC - has said, then having two equal 6-team conferences (as oppposed to divisions) is the next best idea. The ICC has also said thats not possible.

As a Bangladesh fan, if it was BD that was being cut off in a 8-4 system, I'd be vehemently opposed to it and find any and all arguments against it.

The one team that resembles Zimbabwe is the West Indies with their leading players not playing for the team and their board in constant chaos. But the Windies have in the past two years won home and away vs England, have long history to fall back on, and an ICC championship in the recent past as well. They seem to have a golden albeit not very consistent generation of cricketers in Hope, Chase, Brathwaite, Blackwood, and a few others.

At the end of the day, I feel that ZC had ample opportunity over the past decade plus, to have attempted to not be in this position. So I don't have much sympathy I can spare. The period from 2006-2011 when the ZC had suspended their Test status was possibly a bad move in hindsight. At that time you had a struggling Bangladesh to point at and say "well, if they can play Tests, why not us?" In those 6 years, ZC could have given the current players an additional 20-30 Tests experience that could have been very handy over the last few years. ZC took the easy way out, IMO. BD were in the exact same boat, but we knew that Test status was the only the thing keeping us afloat and that if we gave it up or had it taken away, we'd never get it back. Now it may be happening to Zimbabwe.