How come Namibia doesn't have a quota but Zim/SA have?

[CholeZimbo]

This is sidetracking, the fact is there is no thing such as black genetics or white genetics resulting in one race being better at a particular sport, job, activity, and in our particular example, batting or bowling. It has a lot to do with exposure, resources and the desire.

at it's 'peak' Zim cricket was not great because it had white players only, but it had a pool of exposed, well resourced and desiring human beings who happened to be white for reasons we generally know. The likes of Ballance, de Grandenhome, Curran brothers had connections that allowed them to go overseas and get their raw talents nurtured by being exposed to better coaches and facilities which made them even better players. Even if Masakadza had followed that path, if he could, he may have also played for England (Assuming no racial bias in selection there).

Focus in ZC should be to invest in development nationwide to provide all races of desiring cricketers with exposure and resources to develop into international players, the team will naturally select itself and race would not be an issue. And if we currently have black players that are currently in the team on merit, batting and bowling, then surely genetics are an inferior reason for selection.

[secretzimbo]

This is sidetracking, the fact is there is no thing such as black genetics or white genetics resulting in one race being better at a particular sport, job, activity, and in our particular example, batting or bowling. It has a lot to do with exposure, resources and the desire.

at it's 'peak' Zim cricket was not great because it had white players only, but it had a pool of exposed, well resourced and desiring human beings who happened to be white for reasons we generally know. The likes of Ballance, de Grandenhome, Curran brothers had connections that allowed them to go overseas and get their raw talents nurtured by being exposed to better coaches and facilities which made them even better players. Even if Masakadza had followed that path, if he could, he may have also played for England (Assuming no racial bias in selection there).

Focus in ZC should be to invest in development nationwide to provide all races of desiring cricketers with exposure and resources to develop into international players, the team will naturally select itself and race would not be an issue. And if we currently have black players that are currently in the team on merit, batting and bowling, then surely genetics are an inferior reason for selection.

Amen to this, especially the last paragraph!

[TapsC2]

Did ZC peak in the late 90s because we had genuinely good players in the system or because we imported 2 really good players? Genuine question, especially with our future pointing towards another period where we will have to import a couple of players.

Why is it when those 2 guys left we started struggling again? In fact without Johnson, Goodwin, Andy Flower and Olonga how good was that team that was left? Were they any better than what we have now?

[ZIMDOGGY]

This is sidetracking, the fact is there is no thing such as black genetics or white genetics resulting in one race being better at a particular sport, job, activity, and in our particular example, batting or bowling. It has a lot to do with exposure, resources and the desire.

at it's 'peak' Zim cricket was not great because it had white players only, but it had a pool of exposed, well resourced and desiring human beings who happened to be white for reasons we generally know. The likes of Ballance, de Grandenhome, Curran brothers had connections that allowed them to go overseas and get their raw talents nurtured by being exposed to better coaches and facilities which made them even better players. Even if Masakadza had followed that path, if he could, he may have also played for England (Assuming no racial bias in selection there).

Focus in ZC should be to invest in development nationwide to provide all races of desiring cricketers with exposure and resources to develop into international players, the team will naturally select itself and race would not be an issue. And if we currently have black players that are currently in the team on merit, batting and bowling, then surely genetics are an inferior reason for selection.

Well, there is genetics that play a part in sport, look at the top 100m runners for example, but that wasnt what I was getting at.

Genetics in this context I mentioned referred to the numbers game of fast bowling.
Through coaching, you can produce great batters from a small talent pool if the conditions and coaching brains are there.
You cannot coach a small playing pool to produce great 140km + plus bowlers. Bowling is in part genetic. You dont see a 21 bowler at 130km/hr increase to 150k/phr by age 25.
You can coach line and length but you cant teach much in speed. You have it or you dont.
To compete with the top sides, you need a heavy pool of people to draw players from.
Thats where black Zimbabwe can make an immediate impact!
In a country of 9 million, I dont see why you couldnt rapidly quadruple the quick bowling talent pool in ten years with the right scouting.

As for batting, zimbabwe have churned out much better batsmen traditionally than bowling.
We have only ever churned out one truly world class bowler in the last 30 years, and even at his peak he wasnt top 5 in the world on his day, but he was good.
We have however pumped out truly world class batsmen. Flower, Houghton, Goodwin, Hick, and a bunch of highly competent batting, from a very small white pool of players in the past.
Even today, as evidenced by zimcos answer to the mind task i set ya, we would still be a white batting side if we could retain our players.

It is simple and i dont understand how anyone can fucking deny it, the white population of Zimbabwe has an amazing cricketing culture and brains trust. Generations of knowledge, chat, coaching and whatever means Zim have managed to churn out batsmen at a great rate.

They HAVENT done the same with bowlers. Most of our white bowlers have been 125km/hr containing types.
We had a great 140 km /hr one in streak which is consistent in ratio with a 20k white pop (one great in 30 years) a competent Brandes and a wayward inconsistent, horrible one day and brilliant the next in Bliggie, and that was it.

Black Zimbabwe will need a few generations to have that inherent cricketing brain in the culture to get close to replicating the level of batsmen per capita white Zim have.
but for now, the quick win for them is fast bowling!

[ZIMDOGGY]

This is sidetracking, the fact is there is no thing such as black genetics or white genetics resulting in one race being better at a particular sport, job, activity, and in our particular example, batting or bowling. It has a lot to do with exposure, resources and the desire.

at it's 'peak' Zim cricket was not great because it had white players only, but it had a pool of exposed, well resourced and desiring human beings who happened to be white for reasons we generally know. The likes of Ballance, de Grandenhome, Curran brothers had connections that allowed them to go overseas and get their raw talents nurtured by being exposed to better coaches and facilities which made them even better players. Even if Masakadza had followed that path, if he could, he may have also played for England (Assuming no racial bias in selection there).

Focus in ZC should be to invest in development nationwide to provide all races of desiring cricketers with exposure and resources to develop into international players, the team will naturally select itself and race would not be an issue. And if we currently have black players that are currently in the team on merit, batting and bowling, then surely genetics are an inferior reason for selection.

Amen to this, especially the last paragraph!

Focus should not be to develop nationwide. Not yet, Zim dont have the resources yet.
Focus should be rejuvenating school system, the club scene fast bowling scouts and corporate sponsorship. First step is get to how stable it was in 1999, and slowly go from there.
Its doable with the right people.

[TapsC2]

I agree with the fast bowling part. SA produces them by the dozen. I don’t see why we can’t. What I think we need to do is change from this culture of spinners and look for some serious fast bowlers and prepare pace friendly pitches. Baptism of fire. Enough of these flat decks.

Just like Welch, Blessing Muzarabani didn’t make our u19 side too! Ngarava wasn’t even in the starting lineup initially. Look at them now. If they had better coaches they would be much faster and more accurate.

Whilst spreading the game might not bring us good batsmen for a while I agree that there has to be some serious fast bowling talent out there.

[Zimco]

Yeah West Indies for example, has a batting culture of generations and that's why they produce good batsmen. You see it T20 where they have cutting edge decision making probably cause the guys are sharing the knowledge. The fact was guys like Malcolm waller, makanura and others would give those now good young players throwdowns etc which helped their games.

I think the coaching was good in Zim for batting at the junior level but teaching bowling you have to be fast yourself or really understand it like stretching, run-ups, wrist positions etc which many junior coaches wouldn't.

All the conditions in Zim were good for producing young batsmen and the UK is the best finishing ground for batsmen cause they bat so much there. Zim junior cricket and then UK club cricket is a good combo. Also young kids in Zim play a lot of sports and play in general maybe too much sport as they all can't be sportsmen. Like 3 hours twice a week and then on the weekend.

[CholeZimbo]

The Windies A team that has had decent management over the years and from any only black pool of players has won world cups and has produced batsmen that have been in the top 5 quite a few times. How long does it take then to build a culture of batting, not for arguments sake, how long would it take Zim to produce a culture of batting in the black pool of players? and someone mentioned that is the reality we are faced with.

anyway bottom-line, what we generally all agree on is mismanagement at ZC and the state of country will always have many of us wondering what the actual makeup of the team would be now had there been proper and equal development from schoolboy level right up to the national since the 2004 walkout.

In the short term it is clear that we are headed for disaster in the next 4 years unless something drastic happens.

[ZIMDOGGY]

I’ll play dumb for one second and pretend the ‘transformation’ guys 15-20 years ago had the game at heart.
Have to play very very dumb there.

But the strategy was wrong in this.
You don’t build a sport or support by smashing your core market.
You don’t weaken your fan base to strengthen another sector. Never worked in history.
What they could have done was keep the core happy. Retain your best talent and the depth.
Then start to branch out to wider society, first stop the richer blacks.
(This is where we are in 1996) second stop the fast bowling initiative. Third stop middle class Zimbabwe (or Harare) then slowly spread out.

A successful team gains support, not a black team with guys like Maruma getting duck after duck.
Black zim maybe inspired by Taibu, but they also admire and marvel Flower.
What could have been....

[zimbos_05]

Genetics have been proven to be a key factor in many things, not just athletic ability, so to say genetics do not determine if a player is good or not is completely false. Yes, a non white person may be the best batsman in the world etc, but people from the sub/continent have always excelled at bat sports. They were playing a version of cricket well before colonialism.

Even if Masakadza had followed that path, if he could, he may have also played for England (Assuming no racial bias in selection there).

I doubt it very much. Hammy was never a grafter. He got to a point in his career where he was comfortable and he stuck at that. I will always remember after our T20 win against Aus in the T20 WC. They asked Taylor, what are your plans to celebrate this win. His response, "No celebration, we have a game tomorrow. So we go back, we recover, get prepared and come out tomorrow to try and go again". They asked Hammy the same question, his response, "Of course we are going to party the whole night, big party with the fans".

Mentality is a big thing in sport and that mentality is never going to result in a long and successful career with the ECB. Those sort of things get picked up before you make the squad too.

You are making a good point about the need for proper administration, but you are ignoring the fact of who the administration are. Therefore, you are ignoring the work that the white population does behind the scenes to ensure their kids are actually good enough. You are also ignoring the reason for the downfall. You can't ignore the last 18 years and say that race had nothing to do with it, because it did. You also can't look at the last 18 years and suggest that it has been more successful, because it has definitely not. Zim cricket would have been on a totally different trajectory if not for race, so to ignore race in this whole discussion is dismissively dangerous.

Why is it when those 2 guys left we started struggling again? In fact without Johnson, Goodwin, Andy Flower and Olonga how good was that team that was left? Were they any better than what we have now?

I wouldn't say we struggled wholly. We were still competing and beating sides. We beat India. I was also at the Gabba when we fell about 19 short of India.

As for how good that team was, well at the 03 Aus tour we had Andy Blignaut, Sean Ervine, Ray Price, Tatenda Taibu, Mark Vemuelen, Vusi Sibanda all of whom were good players and at the time young players too with much left in them. I've not included some because of age such as Grant Flower, Stuart Carlisle, possibly Streak.

So the structure was in place and the ability was there, it just needed the right administration.