How come Namibia doesn't have a quota but Zim/SA have?

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Zimco
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Re: How come Namibia doesn't have a quota but Zim/SA have?

Post by Zimco »

CholeZimbo wrote:
Tue Apr 06, 2021 7:36 pm
The Windies A team that has had decent management over the years and from any only black pool of players has won world cups and has produced batsmen that have been in the top 5 quite a few times. How long does it take then to build a culture of batting, not for arguments sake, how long would it take Zim to produce a culture of batting in the black pool of players? and someone mentioned that is the reality we are faced with.

anyway bottom-line, what we generally all agree on is mismanagement at ZC and the state of country will always have many of us wondering what the actual makeup of the team would be now had there been proper and equal development from schoolboy level right up to the national since the 2004 walkout.

In the short term it is clear that we are headed for disaster in the next 4 years unless something drastic happens.
I don't think it takes that long. Hamilton's kids could be good batsmen if Hamilton threw them lots of balls and they wanted to play cricket. This is a thing though, it is not as fashionable yet for black players to want to play cricket amongst their friends in Zim as play soccer or basketball for example whereas it was a primary sport for whites 10-20 years ago.

Backyard cricket helps development. So you need Hamilton's kids to be friends with Chakabva's kids or Taylor's kids and then you will have a 'culture of cricket'.

I don't see it happening on a large scale in that generation, more likely the kids of the generation of Wes and Shumba if Zim is still a ICC full member by then.

Diaspora players will be needed in the short term to cover the retirement of Taylor's generation. But I don't know if ZC will be proactive enough to recruitment them, possibly only when results look really bad, as good diaspora players wil cost money and there aren't that many available.

Zimco
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Re: How come Namibia doesn't have a quota but Zim/SA have?

Post by Zimco »

Schadendorff/Murray needed to be kept on the books and trained for when chakabva and Taylor retire keeping wise cause who will there be. Schadendorff would be a good recruit back after a few years in county. Probably what will happen.


If PJ plays for Ireland there will be a serious keeper problem

CholeZimbo
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Re: How come Namibia doesn't have a quota but Zim/SA have?

Post by CholeZimbo »

Craig Wishart 1995-2005

Format Mat Inns NO Runs HS Ave
Test 27 50 1 1098 114 22.40
ODI 90 82 8 1719 172* 23.22

Stuart Carlisle 1995-2005

Test 37 66 6 1615 118 26.91
ODI 111 107 8 2740 121* 27.67

Trevor Gripper 1999-2004

Test 20 38 1 809 112 21.86
ODI 8 8 0 80 26 10.00

Barney Rogers 2002-2005

Test 4 8 0 90 29 11.25
ODI 15 15 0 478 84 31.86

Mark Vermulen 2000-2014

Test 9 18 0 449 118 24.94
ODI 43 43 4 868 92 22.25

Murray Goodwin 1998-2000

Test 19 37 4 1414 166* 42.84
ODI 71 70 3 1818 112* 27.13


Tatenda Taibu 2001-2012

Test 28 54 3 1546 153 30.31
ODI 150 137 21 3393 107* 29.25

Hamilton Masakadza 2001-2019

Test 38 76 2 2223 158 30.04
ODI 209 208 4 5658 178* 27.73


You do not really need to be white to be as average as most Zimbabwe batsmen were in their careers. Not too sure how deep Taibu and Masakadzas cricket cultures were, but they were just as good batsmen as most white batsmen ever were for Zim. Is it really a culture thing or you just need to have the talent and right resources and of course the temperament to deliver at the big stage. It really will not take generations to produce black batsmen that are as average as most white batters were.

Race did play a major part in the downfall of zim cricket. It could have been handled better and I agree it hit us at the time we had potential. Milton Shumba and Wesley have been handled well till now and they have massive potential, get better coaches play more cricket and at the end of their careers they will at least be on par with what most Zim batsmen black or white achieved.

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Re: How come Namibia doesn't have a quota but Zim/SA have?

Post by ZIMDOGGY »

I don’t think there is a serious keeper issue, I think there is a serious keeper BATSMAN issue perhaps. But that’s probably what you meant and is nitpicking, but 100% someone will chime in with ‘Feelwell Mabonbo from X club in Bulawayo is a great keeper and never gives away extras’ if I don’t point that out.

You could probably convince Adam Rouse to come back for a few years at that stage. Doesn’t look like he’s kicked on for England honours, and would be perfect for a band aid transactional gig (Solomon Mire says hi) if we can’t wrap up a longer term solution in Murray, Shades or who else.

It does look like Murray is ready and willing. It just seems it’s going to take some will and a few sit downs, negotiations to get him across the line.
He may want an instant contract as reported, but I’m sure he isn’t that inflexible.He’s probably just looking for some type of financial security or whatever.
None of this ‘he wants to play for the rockbird logo or not’ attitude. Doesn’t always pass the reality test.
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Re: How come Namibia doesn't have a quota but Zim/SA have?

Post by ZIMDOGGY »

CholeZimbo wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 6:51 am
Craig Wishart 1995-2005

Format Mat Inns NO Runs HS Ave
Test 27 50 1 1098 114 22.40
ODI 90 82 8 1719 172* 23.22

Stuart Carlisle 1995-2005

Test 37 66 6 1615 118 26.91
ODI 111 107 8 2740 121* 27.67

Trevor Gripper 1999-2004

Test 20 38 1 809 112 21.86
ODI 8 8 0 80 26 10.00

Barney Rogers 2002-2005

Test 4 8 0 90 29 11.25
ODI 15 15 0 478 84 31.86

Mark Vermulen 2000-2014

Test 9 18 0 449 118 24.94
ODI 43 43 4 868 92 22.25

Murray Goodwin 1998-2000

Test 19 37 4 1414 166* 42.84
ODI 71 70 3 1818 112* 27.13


Tatenda Taibu 2001-2012

Test 28 54 3 1546 153 30.31
ODI 150 137 21 3393 107* 29.25

Hamilton Masakadza 2001-2019

Test 38 76 2 2223 158 30.04
ODI 209 208 4 5658 178* 27.73


You do not really need to be white to be as average as most Zimbabwe batsmen were in their careers. Not too sure how deep Taibu and Masakadzas cricket cultures were, but they were just as good batsmen as most white batsmen ever were for Zim. Is it really a culture thing or you just need to have the talent and right resources and of course the temperament to deliver at the big stage. It really will not take generations to produce black batsmen that are as average as most white batters were.

Race did play a major part in the downfall of zim cricket. It could have been handled better and I agree it hit us at the time we had potential. Milton Shumba and Wesley have been handled well till now and they have massive potential, get better coaches play more cricket and at the end of their careers they will at least be on par with what most Zim batsmen black or white achieved.
I’m starting to wonder if you have an agenda. That’s only half the truth.I’ll give you benefit of the doubt.
You’re comparing guys who’s regular opponents were top 4 nations. Sure they weren’t world beaters, but you know the scores these guys put up against fringe nations?
Wishart= 172*
Carlisle-= centuries against Bdesj and Oz in oz
Carlisle was offered a Sheffield shield gig for Western Australia. By far the hardest domestic comp, especially then.
He was no mug.
Of course a cricketing population of 40-60k is going to have depth problems at international level. Gripper was probably below Hammy for sure. But they did amazingly well.
Oman, UAE and these countries would have much higher amount of cricketers. Yet we are the test team.
Neighbouring Namibia can’t do what Zim did, even at our weakest player drain moment.
Cricinfo profile of the 'James Bond' of cricket:

FULL NAME: Angus James Mackay
BORN: 13 June 1967, Harare
KNOWN AS: Gus Mackay

'The' Gus Mackay.

Hero.
Sportsman.
Artist.
Player.

**
Q. VUSI SIBANDA, WHERE DO YOU HOP?

A. UNDA DA ENTERTAINMENT CENTRE*

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zimbos_05
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Re: How come Namibia doesn't have a quota but Zim/SA have?

Post by zimbos_05 »

CholeZimbo wrote:
Tue Apr 06, 2021 7:36 pm
The Windies A team that has had decent management over the years and from any only black pool of players has won world cups and has produced batsmen that have been in the top 5 quite a few times.

Hang on, are the West Indies not like 90-95% black? Therefore you didn't need quotas. You just took the normal natural population. I don't see your point with this one.
ChloeZimbo wrote:it really will not take generations to produce black batsmen that are as average as most white batters were.
ZC has been run by a "black administration" for almost 20 years now and the best batsmen we've produced are still white players. How many more generations do you want to wait?

Also, as for the players you have listed, it's very selective. Also, none of those guys every lost to UAE, Singapore, Netherlands. They beat sides like India, South Africa, Pakistan, England. A few of them also went to play for strong domestic sides in top leagues in England and Australia.

CholeZimbo
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Re: How come Namibia doesn't have a quota but Zim/SA have?

Post by CholeZimbo »

My points.

1) On the Windies my point was to show that you do not need to be white to be a world class cricket team or batsmen also linked to the issue of white and black genetics in cricket.

2) You gents are now justifying the very low batting averages of a lot of white players based on strength of opposition. Fair point to a certain extent however not conclusive because the current best batsmen in the country have not faced such top opposition also. Based on that reasoning, Taylors average would be much lower than what it is now as he has not played any meaningful cricket against the top teams.

3) Since 2004, Zim's best batsmen have been BT, Hammy, Ervine, Taibu and Williams (We cannot keep on including batsmen that had potential and left, because those that have stayed, PJ and Burl have not been as good as even Taibu, so it is no guarantee they would be better.)

4) You will keep on trying to overlook my main point which is Zimbabwe Cricket does not have decent (because this has historically been a typical white zim batsmen. see point 2 if you insist on it being due to opposition) batsmen because of poor management and YES by a BLACK board. Taylor, Hammy, Taibu, Williams have/had talent and temperament to rise above this and are in the same league of batters.

5) Let me drive home my point. Taibu and Hammy prove the fact that zim can produce competitive black batsmen. However, we just have not seen a lot like these over the years not because the batting talent is not there amongst blacks but because of mismanagement, poor coaching right from age group cricket to have black batsmen get to Zim pre 2004 white standard batting (Which is overrated in this thread).

sloandog
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Re: How come Namibia doesn't have a quota but Zim/SA have?

Post by sloandog »

Taylor has scored ODI centuries against New Zealand (2 on the trott), South Africa in SA, Pakistan in Pakistan, Bangladesh in Bangladesh and India in a World Cup. I think you need to re-assess your idea that BT hasn't faced any meaningful opposition because he has, and he's succeeded at it

Zimco
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Re: How come Namibia doesn't have a quota but Zim/SA have?

Post by Zimco »

CholeZimbo wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:33 am
My points.

1) On the Windies my point was to show that you do not need to be white to be a world class cricket team or batsmen also linked to the issue of white and black genetics in cricket.

2) You gents are now justifying the very low batting averages of a lot of white players based on strength of opposition. Fair point to a certain extent however not conclusive because the current best batsmen in the country have not faced such top opposition also. Based on that reasoning, Taylors average would be much lower than what it is now as he has not played any meaningful cricket against the top teams.

3) Since 2004, Zim's best batsmen have been BT, Hammy, Ervine, Taibu and Williams (We cannot keep on including batsmen that had potential and left, because those that have stayed, PJ and Burl have not been as good as even Taibu, so it is no guarantee they would be better.)

4) You will keep on trying to overlook my main point which is Zimbabwe Cricket does not have decent (because this has historically been a typical white zim batsmen. see point 2 if you insist on it being due to opposition) batsmen because of poor management and YES by a BLACK board. Taylor, Hammy, Taibu, Williams have/had talent and temperament to rise above this and are in the same league of batters.

5) Let me drive home my point. Taibu and Hammy prove the fact that zim can produce competitive black batsmen. However, we just have not seen a lot like these over the years not because the batting talent is not there amongst blacks but because of mismanagement, poor coaching right from age group cricket to have black batsmen get to Zim pre 2004 white standard batting (Which is overrated in this thread).
I don't think anyone was arguing that black batsmen can't be world class, there are plenty of examples eg Lara, sobers, Gayle. Just that Zimbabwe isn't producing them or South Africa and that the quotas arent helping produce them directly but maybe the quotas are increasing player participation generally in South Africa which MAY lead to more good cricketers there. But in Zim a winning team and good career prospects/pay would increase participation way more than quotas.

Hamilton, taibu weren't world class and it is clear Taylor, wikliams are better than them but even they aren't world class the only world star batsmen that played for zim for a long enough period was Andy flower.

Maybe taibu would of been good, but as you said we can't speculate to much on what ifs. Taibu also initially developed under a better first class and cricket system playing with strong players so he had as much chance as any of being good if the player exodus hadn't happened.
Last edited by Zimco on Wed Apr 07, 2021 9:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: How come Namibia doesn't have a quota but Zim/SA have?

Post by ZIMDOGGY »

CholeZimbo wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:33 am
My points.

1) On the Windies my point was to show that you do not need to be white to be a world class cricket team or batsmen also linked to the issue of white and black genetics in cricket.
You haven't understood the point.
Cricinfo profile of the 'James Bond' of cricket:

FULL NAME: Angus James Mackay
BORN: 13 June 1967, Harare
KNOWN AS: Gus Mackay

'The' Gus Mackay.

Hero.
Sportsman.
Artist.
Player.

**
Q. VUSI SIBANDA, WHERE DO YOU HOP?

A. UNDA DA ENTERTAINMENT CENTRE*

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