The Lost Talent Blues

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secretzimbo
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Location: Gweru

Re: The Lost Talent Blues

Post by secretzimbo »

ZIMDOGGY wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 6:00 pm
secretzimbo wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 1:23 pm
farhanhussan wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 1:10 pm
thanks nice info.
It should have been more representation of whites in Zim cricket
management as the cricket legacy in Zim has been with white players.so game would have been in the better state. My guess is 95 % cricketing affairs are run by black management. Further with outflux of whites during Mugabe regime and farmers issues, I m not sure how many ex white cricketers are staying in Zim?Zim white population at present is estimated around 50k. Let's hope a positive change more of more white coaches in franchise teams as well as players with the ending if kolpak deal.
The white population is much lower than that now. At the moment we are about 20,000 or less. To put that in perspective its just over 0.1% of the country. About 17k of those are concentrated in 2 districts of Harare as well, so elsewhere in the country its an even more tiny percentage.

Kolpak isn't relevant. The only Zim cricketer to ever have a Kolpak deal was Blessing, who is black. Most of the white Zimbos didn't need Kolpak as they can get British passports (*or easy access to family visas) anyway (It's different in SA where a big proportion of the whites have Dutch or Afrikaner heritage rather than British. In Zim whites are overwhelmingly British heritage except for a few Greeks and others).

100% we need ZC to have a better relationship with the white community. We need to try to retain at least some of the big 4 in the system after they retire. We need to try and stop losing young white talent. All of that yep. Agree with it all.

But also we are seeing real high class black talent emerging, probably of better quality and in greater numbers than ever before in Zimbabwe. The country has changed and so ZC and the racial makeup of players is mirroring that. We need the best people in the game, and we need to retain them, regardless of skin colour.
Most white zimbos under 30 cannot get an English or Irish visa at all.
They are too far removed from English lineage.
You need a parent born there to be an English ancestry visa holder, or a grandparent for Ireland.

It was spoken about a year ago where we looked into it further and we couldn’t find many of the kids that qualified.
Nick Welch for instance had a few issues and may have well been a black Ndebele.

BT I’m pretty sure is in this boat and was a kolpak player.
Sorry yeah slight typo in my post, I didn't mean Blessing was the 'only ever', I meant only one at the time Kolpak ended. Jarvis was of course on a Kolpak contract too previously.

I'm only 34 and I qualify for a UK ancestry visa through my mother! Yay! Haha. I thought grandparents were okay though? Maybe it changed to parents. No idea - UK immigration is complicated enough, and then throw ECB eligibility stuff on top and its absolute minefield.

It's presumably a good thing for Zim Cricket if less people qualify for that route in the future though.
Last edited by secretzimbo on Tue May 11, 2021 7:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Zimco
Posts: 697
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2018 12:11 pm
Supports: Matabeleland Tuskers

Re: The Lost Talent Blues

Post by Zimco »

ZIMDOGGY wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 6:00 pm
secretzimbo wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 1:23 pm
farhanhussan wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 1:10 pm
thanks nice info.
It should have been more representation of whites in Zim cricket
management as the cricket legacy in Zim has been with white players.so game would have been in the better state. My guess is 95 % cricketing affairs are run by black management. Further with outflux of whites during Mugabe regime and farmers issues, I m not sure how many ex white cricketers are staying in Zim?Zim white population at present is estimated around 50k. Let's hope a positive change more of more white coaches in franchise teams as well as players with the ending if kolpak deal.
The white population is much lower than that now. At the moment we are about 20,000 or less. To put that in perspective its just over 0.1% of the country. About 17k of those are concentrated in 2 districts of Harare as well, so elsewhere in the country its an even more tiny percentage.

Kolpak isn't relevant. The only Zim cricketer to ever have a Kolpak deal was Blessing, who is black. Most of the white Zimbos didn't need Kolpak as they can get British passports (*or easy access to family visas) anyway (It's different in SA where a big proportion of the whites have Dutch or Afrikaner heritage rather than British. In Zim whites are overwhelmingly British heritage except for a few Greeks and others).

100% we need ZC to have a better relationship with the white community. We need to try to retain at least some of the big 4 in the system after they retire. We need to try and stop losing young white talent. All of that yep. Agree with it all.

But also we are seeing real high class black talent emerging, probably of better quality and in greater numbers than ever before in Zimbabwe. The country has changed and so ZC and the racial makeup of players is mirroring that. We need the best people in the game, and we need to retain them, regardless of skin colour.
Most white zimbos under 30 cannot get an English or Irish visa at all.
They are too far removed from English lineage.
You need a parent born there to be an English ancestry visa holder, or a grandparent for Ireland.

It was spoken about a year ago where we looked into it further and we couldn’t find many of the kids that qualified.
Nick Welch for instance had a few issues and may have well been a black Ndebele.

BT I’m pretty sure is in this boat and was a kolpak player.
Sorry this isn't true. I'm under 30 and can get an ancestry visa if I want (but bloody expensive). It costs like 3500 pounds now.
I also know Zims under 30 and others that are there on one. Even guys younger than me.

You have to have a grand parent to get British ancestry visa and an Irish passport could be passed down if the birth was registered which mine wasn't.

But I think people may still be counted as overseas or non England eligible on an ancestry visa until they have lived there for a certain time Although I don't really know. Ancestry visa is different to a British passport, its a right to live in UK, but you can't vote etc.

ZIMDOGGY
Posts: 6647
Joined: Sun Feb 28, 2010 11:40 pm
Supports: MidWest Rhinos

Re: The Lost Talent Blues

Post by ZIMDOGGY »

Ok my apologies. I was thinking citizen / passport which is what
You ultimately need to stay longer.
Even so, we would be at the point in 2021 where most under 30 (as mentioned) do not have a grandparent born in the UK/Eire.
A lot still would but a shit load wouldn’t.

There is one way to game the system with an Irish visa Andy hard if great grandparents registered their children’s birth and their children and their children, but that would take good foresight and knowledge to do.

Correct me if I’m wrong but the big boom of whites into zim was from 1920-1950s so you can see the maths
Cricinfo profile of the 'James Bond' of cricket:

FULL NAME: Angus James Mackay
BORN: 13 June 1967, Harare
KNOWN AS: Gus Mackay

'The' Gus Mackay.

Hero.
Sportsman.
Artist.
Player.

**
Q. VUSI SIBANDA, WHERE DO YOU HOP?

A. UNDA DA ENTERTAINMENT CENTRE*

Zimco
Posts: 697
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2018 12:11 pm
Supports: Matabeleland Tuskers

Re: The Lost Talent Blues

Post by Zimco »

I would say many entered Zim in the 50s so many have ancestry through a grandparent.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Zimbabweans
This chart shows that most entered in 1950 and 1960 period and most people percentage wise left in 1985

Grandparents would have been born in 1920 and 30s and gone to Zim after second world war.

If you live in UK for 5 years (maybe it's 6) on ancestry you get UK passport. So theoritically someone could do a nick Welsh after u19 and be playing for England by 24 although If they can't play county during that time that seems somewhat unrealistic.

Yeah not everyone had foresight back then.

ZIMDOGGY
Posts: 6647
Joined: Sun Feb 28, 2010 11:40 pm
Supports: MidWest Rhinos

Re: The Lost Talent Blues

Post by ZIMDOGGY »

That’s an inteesting point.
I’ll downgrade my ‘most’ to a ‘sizeable minority’ don’t have access to the ancestry visa, but most dont have the citizenship rights that the previous gen did.
Does explain a few things.
Cricinfo profile of the 'James Bond' of cricket:

FULL NAME: Angus James Mackay
BORN: 13 June 1967, Harare
KNOWN AS: Gus Mackay

'The' Gus Mackay.

Hero.
Sportsman.
Artist.
Player.

**
Q. VUSI SIBANDA, WHERE DO YOU HOP?

A. UNDA DA ENTERTAINMENT CENTRE*

farhanhussan
Posts: 97
Joined: Mon Aug 16, 2010 5:28 am

Re: The Lost Talent Blues

Post by farhanhussan »

secretzimbo wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 1:23 pm
farhanhussan wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 1:10 pm
thanks nice info.
It should have been more representation of whites in Zim cricket
management as the cricket legacy in Zim has been with white players.so game would have been in the better state. My guess is 95 % cricketing affairs are run by black management. Further with outflux of whites during Mugabe regime and farmers issues, I m not sure how many ex white cricketers are staying in Zim?Zim white population at present is estimated around 50k. Let's hope a positive change more of more white coaches in franchise teams as well as players with the ending if kolpak deal.
The white population is much lower than that now. At the moment we are about 20,000 or less. To put that in perspective its just over 0.1% of the country. About 17k of those are concentrated in 2 districts of Harare as well, so elsewhere in the country its an even more tiny percentage.

Kolpak isn't relevant. The only Zim cricketer to ever have a Kolpak deal was Blessing, who is black. Most of the white Zimbos didn't need Kolpak as they can get British passports (*or easy access to family visas) anyway (It's different in SA where a big proportion of the whites have Dutch or Afrikaner heritage rather than British. In Zim whites are overwhelmingly British heritage except for a few Greeks and others).

100% we need ZC to have a better relationship with the white community. We need to try to retain at least some of the big 4 in the system after they retire. We need to try and stop losing young white talent. All of that yep. Agree with it all.

But also we are seeing real high class black talent emerging, probably of better quality and in greater numbers than ever before in Zimbabwe. The country has changed and so ZC and the racial makeup of players is mirroring that. We need the best people in the game, and we need to retain them, regardless of skin colour.
what is the state of domestic cricket other than logan cup and franchise t 20 and loi.
Offcourse Npl being run. What about any regional age group tournaments. Under 19 provincial cup? Under 19 ppl r still unprofessional players don't hve to pay match fee only balls bats gear and ground would cost. They can go n hve a fun day.

ZIMDOGGY
Posts: 6647
Joined: Sun Feb 28, 2010 11:40 pm
Supports: MidWest Rhinos

Re: The Lost Talent Blues

Post by ZIMDOGGY »

farhanhussan wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 6:56 am
secretzimbo wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 1:23 pm
farhanhussan wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 1:10 pm
thanks nice info.
It should have been more representation of whites in Zim cricket
management as the cricket legacy in Zim has been with white players.so game would have been in the better state. My guess is 95 % cricketing affairs are run by black management. Further with outflux of whites during Mugabe regime and farmers issues, I m not sure how many ex white cricketers are staying in Zim?Zim white population at present is estimated around 50k. Let's hope a positive change more of more white coaches in franchise teams as well as players with the ending if kolpak deal.
The white population is much lower than that now. At the moment we are about 20,000 or less. To put that in perspective its just over 0.1% of the country. About 17k of those are concentrated in 2 districts of Harare as well, so elsewhere in the country its an even more tiny percentage.

Kolpak isn't relevant. The only Zim cricketer to ever have a Kolpak deal was Blessing, who is black. Most of the white Zimbos didn't need Kolpak as they can get British passports (*or easy access to family visas) anyway (It's different in SA where a big proportion of the whites have Dutch or Afrikaner heritage rather than British. In Zim whites are overwhelmingly British heritage except for a few Greeks and others).

100% we need ZC to have a better relationship with the white community. We need to try to retain at least some of the big 4 in the system after they retire. We need to try and stop losing young white talent. All of that yep. Agree with it all.

But also we are seeing real high class black talent emerging, probably of better quality and in greater numbers than ever before in Zimbabwe. The country has changed and so ZC and the racial makeup of players is mirroring that. We need the best people in the game, and we need to retain them, regardless of skin colour.
what is the state of domestic cricket other than logan cup and franchise t 20 and loi.
Offcourse Npl being run. What about any regional age group tournaments. Under 19 provincial cup? Under 19 ppl r still unprofessional players don't hve to pay match fee only balls bats gear and ground would cost. They can go n hve a fun day.
a few weeks school tournament,
a 'boozer' friendly league of white zimbabweans from harare, some ex players.

nit sure if theres such a thing as club cricket on the weekends for kids, surely there is something.

I have no idea how are still a test team lol
Cricinfo profile of the 'James Bond' of cricket:

FULL NAME: Angus James Mackay
BORN: 13 June 1967, Harare
KNOWN AS: Gus Mackay

'The' Gus Mackay.

Hero.
Sportsman.
Artist.
Player.

**
Q. VUSI SIBANDA, WHERE DO YOU HOP?

A. UNDA DA ENTERTAINMENT CENTRE*

ZIMDOGGY
Posts: 6647
Joined: Sun Feb 28, 2010 11:40 pm
Supports: MidWest Rhinos

Re: The Lost Talent Blues

Post by ZIMDOGGY »

Zimco wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 6:58 pm
ZIMDOGGY wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 6:00 pm
secretzimbo wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 1:23 pm


The white population is much lower than that now. At the moment we are about 20,000 or less. To put that in perspective its just over 0.1% of the country. About 17k of those are concentrated in 2 districts of Harare as well, so elsewhere in the country its an even more tiny percentage.

Kolpak isn't relevant. The only Zim cricketer to ever have a Kolpak deal was Blessing, who is black. Most of the white Zimbos didn't need Kolpak as they can get British passports (*or easy access to family visas) anyway (It's different in SA where a big proportion of the whites have Dutch or Afrikaner heritage rather than British. In Zim whites are overwhelmingly British heritage except for a few Greeks and others).

100% we need ZC to have a better relationship with the white community. We need to try to retain at least some of the big 4 in the system after they retire. We need to try and stop losing young white talent. All of that yep. Agree with it all.

But also we are seeing real high class black talent emerging, probably of better quality and in greater numbers than ever before in Zimbabwe. The country has changed and so ZC and the racial makeup of players is mirroring that. We need the best people in the game, and we need to retain them, regardless of skin colour.
Most white zimbos under 30 cannot get an English or Irish visa at all.
They are too far removed from English lineage.
You need a parent born there to be an English ancestry visa holder, or a grandparent for Ireland.

It was spoken about a year ago where we looked into it further and we couldn’t find many of the kids that qualified.
Nick Welch for instance had a few issues and may have well been a black Ndebele.

BT I’m pretty sure is in this boat and was a kolpak player.

You have to have a grand parent to get British ancestry visa and an Irish passport could be passed down if the birth was registered which mine wasn't.

btw you should be able to get an irish passport if your grandparent was born in ireland.
Cricinfo profile of the 'James Bond' of cricket:

FULL NAME: Angus James Mackay
BORN: 13 June 1967, Harare
KNOWN AS: Gus Mackay

'The' Gus Mackay.

Hero.
Sportsman.
Artist.
Player.

**
Q. VUSI SIBANDA, WHERE DO YOU HOP?

A. UNDA DA ENTERTAINMENT CENTRE*

secretzimbo
Posts: 8689
Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2021 2:08 pm
Supports: MidWest Rhinos
Location: Gweru

Re: The Lost Talent Blues

Post by secretzimbo »

farhanhussan wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 6:56 am
what is the state of domestic cricket other than logan cup and franchise t 20 and loi.
Offcourse Npl being run. What about any regional age group tournaments. Under 19 provincial cup? Under 19 ppl r still unprofessional players don't hve to pay match fee only balls bats gear and ground would cost. They can go n hve a fun day.
Club cricket was very strong back in the day but its been decimated really.

Below franchise level we do still have club cricket. So each of the provincial associations is supposed to run club cricket, although this really does vary in size and quality and frequency. Some years it doesn't even happen in some of the smaller associations. It's strongest in Harare of course, elsewhere it's pretty weak apart from a couple of decent teams in Bulawayo.

We have the senior Vigne Cup in Harare which in a good year is basically as strong as the Logan Cup tbh. Most of the national players even show up for a couple of games for their clubs - especially the Takashinga boys who basically field Logan Cup-quality teams and usually just trounce everyone else. Unfortunately, if you think ZC has politics, bias or corruption at its heart then I hate to tell you its even worse at regional level. See Old Georgians trying to enter a team in the Vigne Cup for the last few years and having ridiculous artificial barriers to entry invented to keep them out. Probably because it's not a good luck that a load of 40+ year old half drunk whites would beat most of the teams apart from Takashinga.

The 'official' school cricket is quite weak, generally only a few weeks organised cricket per year. But the top schools organise and play plenty of other 'friendly' matches against each other which go unreported. Some schools organise invitational tournaments and weekends too.

ZC occasionally organises a U19 tournament at least once or twice per year, mostly for scouting and selection purposes - we'll probably see more of this later this year in the run up to U19 World Cup preparations.

Zimco
Posts: 697
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2018 12:11 pm
Supports: Matabeleland Tuskers

Re: The Lost Talent Blues

Post by Zimco »

ZIMDOGGY wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 8:34 am
Zimco wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 6:58 pm
ZIMDOGGY wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 6:00 pm


Most white zimbos under 30 cannot get an English or Irish visa at all.
They are too far removed from English lineage.
You need a parent born there to be an English ancestry visa holder, or a grandparent for Ireland.

It was spoken about a year ago where we looked into it further and we couldn’t find many of the kids that qualified.
Nick Welch for instance had a few issues and may have well been a black Ndebele.

BT I’m pretty sure is in this boat and was a kolpak player.

You have to have a grand parent to get British ancestry visa and an Irish passport could be passed down if the birth was registered which mine wasn't.

btw you should be able to get an irish passport if your grandparent was born in ireland.
Nah my great grandfather was Irish but he was in the navy and he was stationed in Portsmouth area so my gran was born in England.

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