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Another new thread that references Pariah/hhm three times.

Pariah wins once again.

Good to see you are still with us zimbos_05, and a welcome change to read some well-founded thoughts for a change. There is only one point I'd like to comment on, and that is the quotes by Hami and BT. I do not dispute your observation that many of our players lack mental strength. But I would take those quotes with a grain of salt: BT said what you expect (the usual cliché), Hami being Hami honestly said how he felt at that moment. But even if we take these words as an adequate reflection of their mentalities they wouldn't tell us a lot about their respective mental strength: it rather suggests a different attitude, work ethic etc, and I'm not sure how substantiated in fact such an assessment is. Is BT a more professional sportsman than Hami? We know BT works as as hard in the nets as anybody, but he's also the guy who has repeatedly failed fitness tests. So I wouldn't hold him up as a shining light.

Where mental strength is concerned I find it equally unfortunate to contrast two of the three players we have who actually have shown the mental strength to score big hundreds in Test cricket. To contrast Hami and Vusi or BT and Williams would be more appropriate, imho; there's little doubt that Vusi or Willow are just as or more talented (as batsmen) than the other two but they clearly lack mental strength.

Quite some thoughts and opinions you have there,
1) i totally agree that the welfare of the players is the uttermost important thing. players should be taken care off financially and let them concentrate on their game.
2) the technical aspect of each individual player must be looked at and after they must be sent off to specialists for a few months to work on their flaws if our batting, fielding and bowling coaches cant make progress.
3) player selection should be based on form and strike rates depending on the format. for example if u have an odi squad with less players in the test side why not let them with fringe players be touring playing 4day games instead of lying iddle till next test.
4) another concern is our A side, specially the coaching staff they should prepare players for the 1st team technically and mentally.
5) the issue of slow pitches is a concern to me coz most test playing sides have quick wickets with bullet fast bowlers, how do u groom batsmen (specially openning) and our bowlers on the aspects of how to play and react in such conditions. this is y u find only the guys with county or foreign experience in our team play well against pace or have good variation in bowling.
6) lastly on paper we have one of the most capped side in international cricket so we definately dont lack experience but should change our mind game from the excitement of loosing having played well or drawing but rather become a more attacking side in the field. captain needs to stop being conservative but be very attacking in all formats, my opinion is BRT has a very attacking mind and have never seen a zim captain who took risks like him in terms of field placements that payed off

+1 to all the passionate thoughts shared by zimbos_05 and +1 to the specific rebuttal by foreignfield

foreignfield wrote: ↑

Mon Nov 06, 2017 8:11 am

Good to see you are still with us zimbos_05, and a welcome change to read some well-founded thoughts for a change. There is only one point I'd like to comment on, and that is the quotes by Hami and BT. I do not dispute your observation that many of our players lack mental strength. But I would take those quotes with a grain of salt: BT said what you expect (the usual cliché), Hami being Hami honestly said how he felt at that moment. But even if we take these words as an adequate reflection of their mentalities they wouldn't tell us a lot about their respective mental strength: it rather suggests a different attitude, work ethic etc, and I'm not sure how substantiated in fact such an assessment is. Is BT a more professional sportsman than Hami? We know BT works as as hard in the nets as anybody, but he's also the guy who has repeatedly failed fitness tests. So I wouldn't hold him up as a shining light.

Where mental strength is concerned I find it equally unfortunate to contrast two of the three players we have who actually have shown the mental strength to score big hundreds in Test cricket. To contrast Hami and Vusi or BT and Williams would be more appropriate, imho; there's little doubt that Vusi or Willow are just as or more talented (as batsmen) than the other two but they clearly lack mental strength.

I don't think I can agree with this completely. Mental strength determined attitude. Firstly, I am not picking on specific players, but rather used that example because it is the most telling, and after all these years it still sticks strong.

I am not holding one above the other, but I think the path both their careers have taken is a reflection of attitude/mental strength. Hami scored a test on debut as a teenager. He showed the mental strength in that innings to prove his talent. Since then, he has not really progressed in the manner he should have, and that interview gave an insight in to just why.

It is not about picking on certain players, but it is evident that their a lack of mental strength. We tend to play not to lose, and if we do not, it is a victory. We have spoken time and time about learning, developing and being back on the right track. Yes there are many other factors, but as players who have talent, they too need to accept fault when they fail. In that first test, the number is weak dismissals, It is definitely a sign of mental strength.

What the chips is this thread....

I don't know why Steven Mangongo is included in this infamy, especially the selfish part.

The guy did his best under difficult circumstances and there are coaches who did worse than him, specifically Alan Butcher and Dave Whatmore.

Conant wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 07, 2017 4:22 pm

I don't know why Steven Mangongo is included in this infamy, especially the selfish part.

The guy did his best under difficult circumstances and there are coaches who did worse than him, specifically Alan Butcher and Dave Whatmore.

Yea he did his best I'll give him that, so much so that he felt the need to slap his players around..

Conant wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 07, 2017 4:22 pm

I don't know why Steven Mangongo is included in this infamy, especially the selfish part.

The guy did his best under difficult circumstances and there are coaches who did worse than him, specifically Alan Butcher and Dave Whatmore.

Did his best? He berated players. Demanded respect without earning it.

Butcher and Whatmore worked in severely difficult circumstances, but at least with Whatmore you can see he had some sort of plan on how to improve certain individuals.

I guess Butcher got himself more integrated to Zim scenario than Whatmore. I guess in general, Whatmore has basically been living off that SL success for far too long with nothing much else to show. Butcher is at least is still passionately behind guys who he once coached, congratulating guys like Mpofu and Hamilton on their recent successes.