Test XI for New Zealand right now

[betterdays]

In Test the notion of an allrounder is a luxury which is a bonus if it exists, otherwise it's 6 batsmen and 4 bowlers and a wicketkeeper who should bat. So this Meth or Chigs debate should not even be a debate. Neither is a test number 7 (batsman) at the moment. for me the number 7 spot is between Ervine and Mutizwa with the latter getting my vote. Chigs and Meth would be vying for the Mpofu spot if it were available. Meth getting my vote and Chigs behind Querl, Shingi in that queue. However ODI is a different story, an all rounder at 7 is priceless and currently despite the none existent batting Chigs is our best option.

Essentially you are right about allrounders in tests, but we like to pick team that provide 'options' ... I would guess that where it's seen to be 'close', like between Forster/Ervine/Chigs (Meth is not in the running for this spot) for 7 - it'll go to Chigs because he offers a bowling option. I also agree that Meth will be the selectors replacement for an injured Mpofu (not sure chigs is in the running for this). For the record, I'd go for Mutizwa too at 7 (well, in the side - he could bat higher) in Tests.

[eugene]

1. Tino Mawoyo
2. Brendan Taylor
3. Vusi Sibanda
4. Craig Ervine
5. Tatenda Taibu
6. Malcolm Waller
7. Elton Chigumbura
8. Keegan Meth
9. Kyle Jarvis
10. Ray Price
11. Christopher Mpofu

[FlowerPower]

In Test the notion of an allrounder is a luxury which is a bonus if it exists, otherwise it's 6 batsmen and 4 bowlers and a wicketkeeper who should bat. So this Meth or Chigs debate should not even be a debate. Neither is a test number 7 (batsman) at the moment. for me the number 7 spot is between Ervine and Mutizwa with the latter getting my vote. Chigs and Meth would be vying for the Mpofu spot if it were available. Meth getting my vote and Chigs behind Querl, Shingi in that queue. However ODI is a different story, an all rounder at 7 is priceless and currently despite the none existent batting Chigs is our best option.

Essentially you are right about allrounders in tests, but we like to pick team that provide 'options' ... I would guess that where it's seen to be 'close', like between Forster/Ervine/Chigs (Meth is not in the running for this spot) for 7 - it'll go to Chigs because he offers a bowling option. I also agree that Meth will be the selectors replacement for an injured Mpofu (not sure chigs is in the running for this). For the record, I'd go for Mutizwa too at 7 (well, in the side - he could bat higher) in Tests.

If Chigs bowling is 'all that', he should be vying for a bowling spot, evidently it isn't hence we find a position elsewhere, the batting position. Foster/Ervine/Chigs is never an equation to solve, especially when we are talking Test and mores batting. its not close. Foster has made 399 runs at 99.75 an innings over 5 innings including 2 hundreds the highest Zim qualified player this season, next on the chart is Craig a distant 273 at 54.6 after playing one MORE innings (6)....Chigs has 87 runs from 4 innings at 21.74.

Which ever way you look at it from (except "he looks technically bad" viewpoint) ODI, FC, Mutizwa has earned his cap. Also remember it's not how good the shopfront looks but how much we sell, and if it's runs on the board no matter how ugly, Foster is the man. Surely you guys see this...I can accept if you say "we don't like him period" but on merit he is embarrassingly ahead....

[betterdays]

If Chigs bowling is 'all that', he should be vying for a bowling spot, evidently it isn't hence we find a position elsewhere, the batting position. Foster/Ervine/Chigs is never an equation to solve, especially when we are talking Test and mores batting. its not close. Foster has made 399 runs at 99.75 an innings over 5 innings including 2 hundreds the highest Zim qualified player this season, next on the chart is Craig a distant 273 at 54.6 after playing one MORE innings (6)....Chigs has 87 runs from 4 innings at 21.74.

I have no arguments about Forster ... never have had!

When I say "close" I refer to international relevance - not 1st class record specifically - though I think both should be taken into consideration (which is why I am as keen on FM as you are). EC has shown glimpses in Tests - enough to say that he has ability both in bowling and batting but bowling is 'an option' not his forte - but it's who he batted/bowled against and how he's performed that brings him closer to consideration (mainly because the selectors will go for the 'tried and trusted', leaving THAT spot and THOSE three to choose from imo)... and we can only get a clearer picture when comparing ODIs - even if we're discussing the test spot. Plus a quick look at their respective performances vs BD puts Elton ahead.

[btw, I fully understand that you are talking Tests not ODIs, but I am talking about the dreaded 'experience/pedigree' internationally and in general,with occasional exceptions -usually with opening bats- most Test and ODI sides will not be too dissimilar].

Chigs can bat ... he may be going through a crisis of confidence but the amazing thing for me is he is only a year older than Forster but has a lot of International pegidree behind him, he has scored either a half century or a 40* against Oz, PK, SA, WI, SL, Eng against attacks consisting of amoung others: McGrath, Gillespe, Watson, Symonds, Gough, Harmison, Flintoff, Pollock, Ntini, Morkel, Philander, Afridi, F Edwards & Vaas!! [surprisingly in his many ODIs he's played India just the once but hit 24* at a SR of 150 and effectively won that game]. At 25 years old, this cannot be dismissed ... and for me goes a little way to bridge the 10 point FC batting gap between him and FM + he's a bowling option.

It may be that EC is a finished entity, but at 25 that doesn't seem likely. He needs to find himself again - he was another glimmer of hope in 2005 (I watched him in the Tests in SA that year and he was bowling really well). In any case,if FM is picked I'll be happy, if it's EC i will not be upset - which is unfortunate for CE who has not done too much wrong (but will not leapfrog Masakadza for another spot or squeeze into this 'open' spot).

[FlowerPower]

If Chigs bowling is 'all that', he should be vying for a bowling spot, evidently it isn't hence we find a position elsewhere, the batting position. Foster/Ervine/Chigs is never an equation to solve, especially when we are talking Test and mores batting. its not close. Foster has made 399 runs at 99.75 an innings over 5 innings including 2 hundreds the highest Zim qualified player this season, next on the chart is Craig a distant 273 at 54.6 after playing one MORE innings (6)....Chigs has 87 runs from 4 innings at 21.74.

I have no arguments about Forster ... never have had!

When I say "close" I refer to international relevance - not 1st class record specifically - though I think both should be taken into consideration (which is why I am as keen on FM as you are). EC has shown glimpses in Tests - enough to say that he has ability both in bowling and batting but bowling is 'an option' not his forte - but it's who he batted/bowled against and how he's performed that brings him closer to consideration (mainly because the selectors will go for the 'tried and trusted', leaving THAT spot and THOSE three to choose from imo)... and we can only get a clearer picture when comparing ODIs - even if we're discussing the test spot. Plus a quick look at their respective performances vs BD puts Elton ahead.

I am on record here saying I think Foster is more a Test player than an ODI player, despite this he has done fairly well in ODI...ave of over 30 compared to Chigs 23....interesting you chose to focus on the one match Elton outclassed (forgive the exaggeration) Foster...that Bangladesh match...overall (average) Foster has a better record almost identical strike rate Chigs shading it 83 to Foster's 80 ...however in ODI it's not a straight shoot out between the two...Chigs is in the all rounder spot because he can bowl and allegedly bat...in ODI it's more Waller/Ervine/Mutizwa and based on records Mutizwa comes top, but we would all agree Waller is the incumbent and doing very well...but Test Chigs ave of 14 is really hardly something you want to point to as exhibit A...and in FC it's chalk and cheese with Foster streets ahead...unfortunately he has never had a chance at Test which I argue he is overdue...

[btw, I fully understand that you are talking Tests not ODIs, but I am talking about the dreaded 'experience/pedigree' internationally and in general,with occasional exceptions -usually with opening bats- most Test and ODI sides will not be too dissimilar].

Chigs can bat ... he may be going through a crisis of confidence but the amazing thing for me is he is only a year older than Forster but has a lot of International pegidree behind him, he has scored either a half century or a 40* against Oz, PK, SA, WI, SL, Eng against attacks consisting of amoung others: McGrath, Gillespe, Watson, Symonds, Gough, Harmison, Flintoff, Pollock, Ntini, Morkel, Philander, Afridi, F Edwards & Vaas!! [surprisingly in his many ODIs he's played India just the once but hit 24* at a SR of 150 and effectively won that game]. At 25 years old, this cannot be dismissed ... and for me goes a little way to bridge the 10 point FC batting gap between him and FM + he's a bowling option.

Excellent HISTORY in ODI...please present his TEST credentials...point of correction Chigs is one year YOUNGER than Foster....

Overall my argument is Foster is a better Test batsman than Chigs, and based on that deserves a shot at number seven more than Chigs...ODI is a totally different argument, Chigs is the incumbent number 7, Foster jostling with Ervine to dislodge the settled Waller at 5.

[betterdays]

interesting you chose to focus on the one match Elton outclassed (forgive the exaggeration) Foster...that Bangladesh match...overall (average) Foster has a better record almost identical strike rate Chigs shading it 83 to Foster's 80 .

Not one match ... one team! One they've both played a number of matches against. An 'overall' would be very unfair to Chigs who's faced all the best teams and smost of the best bowlers in in the world over the last decade, while Forster has, apart from BD, only really played Kenya!

Excellent HISTORY in ODI...please present his TEST credentials....

that would be HISTORY too but OK (and there's 14 points in favour of Chigs, if your figures are correct):
FM, despite being a year older, was deemed not good enough for Tests and therefore currently holds a '0' average in that form.

EC, due to the era and opposition, has the ordinary ave you have already noted(14?) but has managed, on occasion, to show that he can make runs against the best!! [but his time may have gone**]

Overall my argument is Foster is a better Test batsman than Chigs...

I think you mean 'could' be a better Test batsman, based on FC stats in a no doubt improving, but, until recently, weak system. [FM never had to be a part of the struggles .. and as a result his time may have arrived] ... which brings me back to my persistent point, how have they fared against the world's best bowlers ... Chigs has, on occasion, fared pretty well and that helps bridge the 10 point FC gap + he is a bowling option.

** quick edit while i'm still at my laptop ... like Utseya, Duffin, Panya, Matsi etc - Chigs may be unceremoniously discarded after trying admirably to get Zim though an extremely trying period with occasional highlights. Let's see if the new guys can repay the debt!!?

[FlowerPower]

Ok final point I'll quit beating about the bush....solely on batting (which what the shoot out between FM and EC should be based on for a test spot..not ODI) FM is my choice based on current form and suitability to the format (based on FC system both players have performed in and same attack, as they play for the same team and face the same attack, poor or good, one averages 99 and the other 27)....I rest my case, and respect your opinion and right to it. If this is not compelling enough for you, nothing will be and trying to finding common ground is futile....

[betterdays]

FP - I genuinely enjoy engaging with you but I don't think you are seeking common ground...quite the opposite ... and that's fine. Our position on FM is that he should get a game (I have said that since the end of the last test). You make your final point when you like, but it probably won't be 'the' final point. I was not comparing ODIs as much as I was comparing pedigree, international opposition.

There are a number of reasons that a comparison this season will not do:
EC has been recovering from injury,
FM is in the form of his life
EC is not in his best form (does not always matter with class), but he should still perform if fit

[and this final point is picked up by national selectors, who will - as BRMT pointed out from the start - most likely pick EC over FM in the starting line-up]! Explain that!!? and explain why even here most accept it'll be Chigs and in fact it's only you and I (who are discussing this) who are so in favour of FM. (don't worry "explain that?" is rhetorical)

[Jemisi]

Vusi
Tino
Hami
BRMT
Taibu
Waller
Mutizwa
Meth
Jarvis
Ray
Mpofu

[Conant]

EC is not in his best form (does not always matter with class), but he should still perform if fit
)

Class - what class?