[Match Thread] Zimbabwe v NewZealand (3rd ODI)

[hhm]

hhm, who are the big boys of Zimbabwean cricket that you think are being left out for inexperienced younger players? I can't think of any Zimbabwean player who is currently on the sidelines who is a titan of world cricket.

You may discard them as objects of ridicule, but time will tell my friend, time will tell.

[FlowerPower]

Unfortunately Flower Power, I will continue to stand by my theory to use our suitable mature players available to us(despite your naughty inclusion of Ebrahim&Mahwire). Sure T20s and ODI are something else and as is most often the trend in most Full members (including this NZ side), your fringe players are tried out in that format first and that's where the likes of Jarvis, Meth, Mutizwa and Waller can be tried out from time to time.

Must say I never got that part of your argument: "you are strickly talking of the test team, and happy to include the youngsters in T20 and ODI", if that's the case, I think I can live with that somewhat. But don't you think the mature guys would actually be worse than the so called youngsters, going by the names you have branded before (and I will give you Taibu and Taylor, and stick Bligs for lack of a mature allrounder still playing :

1. Varmeleun 2. Duffin 3. Matsikenyeri 4.Taylor 5.Ewing 6. Taibu 7. Blignaut? 8. Panyangara 9. Rainsford 10. Price 11. Hondo

sounds weaker than:

1. Sibanda 2. Mawoyo 3. Masakadza 4. Taylor 5. Waller 6. Taibu 7. Chigumbura 8. Meth 9. Jarvis 10. Price 11. Mpofu

If I follow your argument team A would hold fort until team B is ready, two issues:

a) Would the youngsters stick around until their turn comes?
b) Would ICC stick by us as our "mature" players lose left right and centre?

But like I said I have begun to warm to your idea but still need convincing.

The bigger platform however, is reserved for the big boys! Trust me when you see how Eng destroyed a mighty Indian lineup in the Tests, and how Aus spanked SL (with Sanga&Mahela) then you begin to appreciate the gap between us and the rest. You still remember what Hayden did to us, now think what Trott&Cook plus their bowlers would do to us, as well as Sanga&Mahela plus their sipinners in the subcontinent. We'd lose by an innings without even getting close to the 800runs they posted. These boys aren't ready to face a full strength lineup from the top 4/5 teams! It will be an embarrassment!!!

Look there is a gap between the top 5 ( Ind, Eng,SA, Aus, SL,) and the bottom 5 (Pak, NZ, WI, Zim, Ban). Just wait for the Eng - WI series to see what I mean, so I dont think its just Zim that would be in trouble. I finally see the worth of having a tiered system to be reviewed every 4/5 or so years, with the bottom from the top tier swapping places with the top from the bottom tier for four years. The associates can form a third tier.

Good Doctor, for all my love and respect for my favorite Zim player Andy, the fact is that he simply isn't up there with the best of the best. He was an above average player who had a purple patch that almost turned him into a great before it ended abruptly. Thankfully he did enough during that period to get the average that made him look the part. Shane Warne has him higher than the likes of Inzy, Anwar, Azharuddin, Yousuf and even Steven Waugh but we know he was just being kind.

Painfully true, but he is a Zim legend!

[foreignfield]

What a fantastic win. I missed Taylor's and Tibba's innings due to work (I only returned to the computer to see Tibba get out, thinking 'here we go again'), and soon after I was hiding behind the couch

Yes, Waller strikes one as the ultimate team player, and deserves a crack at test cricket now. I know he's neck and neck with Mutizwa for that middle order spot, but every time I see Waller at the crease he cuts a better figure than Foster - even if he get's a out slogging.

On the endless 'mature giants of Zim cricket that are carelessly overlooked, i.e. our youngster's should bide their time on non-existent A team tours'-theme, here's my two pence's worth: You play your best players. Full stop. If you think those older players are your best players, you select those older players. If you're not a selector or coach, then that's a personal opinion, and very well so. If you think a younger player has more to offer, you select him. We have one proven older world class player: Price - and he always plays ...

Streaky and GF are two people I would trust a long way in their judgement of players they work with every day. (I know they're not selectors, but I'm certain their input goes a long way) So I tend to give them the benefit of the doubt when it comes to bringing in players like Vitori, Jarvis, Mutizwa, Waller ...

On a side note: How often have those mature players won us matches like today? Just asking.

[hhm]

On the endless 'mature giants of Zim cricket that are carelessly overlooked, i.e. our youngster's should bide their time on non-existent A team tours'-theme, here's my two pence's worth: You play your best players. Full stop. If you think those older players are your best players, you select those older players. If you're not a selector or coach, then that's a personal opinion, and very well so. If you think a younger player has more to offer, you select him. On a side note: How often have those mature players won us matches like today? Just asking.

First of all I believe the mature players are better and more equipped for this level, you and obviously quite a lot of other people believe otherwise. As it happens they haven't played so we can assess them and compare fairly but I've seen enough of all our youngsters to know they won't cut it anytime soon. True, we're not selectors so the relevance of these discussions is merely that an expression of opinion. I do not speak from a T20s and ODIs perspective because the last time we were relevant in that area was in 1999 (or to be kind 2003), and anything after that, despite today's knock, is not worth consideration. So we are merely a fixture in competitions and Tours against sides who choose not to use matches against us as a warm up fixture or a try out for their inexperienced youngsters who are superior and more polished in comparison to our players(most of whom are among the most experienced ODI players in World cricket). My focus is fixed on Tests and that is where my arguments centre. We need those other mature players to make us a more competitive side.

Bear in mind that despite age, some of the younger players fall in the category of mature players e.g Elton, Mpofu & Taylor. The rest of that core is made up by Taibu, Vusi, Hamilton & Price. I'm simply referring to the likes of Duffin(only specialist opener we have in Zim FC), Ewing(leader, middle order batsman&part-time spinner), Matsi(middle order bat, part-time spinner&Legend) and Rainsford etc being necessary and valuable additions to that group. Flowerpower being Flowerpower will tend to confuse the matter by including players I haven't referred to for international cricket such as Hondo & Bligs, and splitting the groups of players but that's just him being him.

Unfortunately for various reasons they didn't get to play during the trials but to me it's a forgone conclusion that if Duffin and Ewing did turn up before Butcher etc, then chances are they would have played that first Test. Rainsford did nothing wrong. He last played for us when he destroyed Ire, and was still recovering from injury when the first Test approached. Some people seem to have had the impossible privilege of watching him play top class cricket during the time that he was seriously injured, and apparently saw enough to conclude that he was bowling sh*t during that time. As it turns out when he recovered he reappeared as a slower, useless bowler. I on the other hand did not have that privilege except for modest stats of a few games he's played in the last couple of months. It could be that some of you have again had the privilege of observing Cremer strut his stuff at the highest levels during the time that he's been injured. I just hope for his sake he doesn't suddenly reappear as a has-been bowler!

[sloandog]

Our youngsters aren't good enough for this level ? Wow, either you're incredibly stubborn or blind. I'll have a detailed reply for your argument tomorrow, it's hard typing on an ipod

[ZIMDOGGY]

Waller just turned from a young gun into an experienced head overnight.

To answer your Q HHM.

My answer to what happened has 2 versions, long and short.

Short answer: waller

Longer answer:

I've stated before- to which you've agreed. That Zimbabwe will psyche themselves out on the situation. If they chase 300- they will get 260. Chase 160.... 120. Etc etc

Today they showed the usual intense intent when chasing a big score (they wouldn't do this otherwise ever ) Taylor did his usual fight. And then the slide started to continue right in schedule.

But malcolm W had other ideas.

Take him out- the traits ate there for a slide.... Losing a fee cheap middle order wickets. Brain explosion meltdown during the final lap (Eltons shot, and Meth and mushangwes brain explosion) even a token run out chance.

Take out Waller and the slide is very much there.

Do you all remember what Alistair Campbell mentioned 3x times in the commentary box when they were talking about the inevitable Zimbabwe stumble?

He said words to the effect of " listen I know Malcolm Waller well, he is one man who won't let the pressure get to him like other players, that's his strength"

While the other commentators were waiting for the team to crumble, Campbell was only worried about walkers partners to crumble- never Waller. Whenever Waller was on strike I really felt as if Campbell felt safe. He talked about what Waller was going to have to do out there ( a 4 here, a single there) id never seen anything like it - a commentator talking so confidently in a man with an average of 18, talking like he was referring to Andy flower. I thought Ali was crazy.

Turns out Ali was right and I/we were the crazy ones

[ZIMDOGGY]

it's hard typing on an ipod

I hear that.

Welcome to 95% of my posts on zcf

[eugene]

hhm, I do not get your logic. Who are these experienced older players with a long history of performing at the highest level? Sure Matsi has 8 years or so of international experience but it was eight years of crap. You get a couple of bad games from Kyle Jarvis and you want to send him away yet you tolerate eight years of bad performances from Matsi? Explain that thinking for me. Matsi has never done what Malcolm Waller did today and never will. Duffin scored 50 on test debut and then never did much else. His technique is limited and he is painfully slow in the field. Ewing I wouldn't mind giving a chance due to his domestic performance, although I think his technique is marginal at best and his bowling is non-existent these days.

Just because players have been playing for a number of years doesn't make them mature. Sibanda still suffers from immature shot selection and Matsi looks like he is on debut every match.

Also, you are wrong about Andy Flower. He is one of the greats of international cricket. He held the team together for a number of years and scored a truckload of runs in harsh enviroments against tough opposition. Anyone who questions the greatness of Andy Flower should question if they are truly a fan of Zimbabwe.

[Dr_Situ(ZimFanatic)]

Also, you are wrong about Andy Flower. He is one of the greats of international cricket. He held the team together for a number of years and scored a truckload of runs in harsh enviroments against tough opposition. Anyone who questions the greatness of Andy Flower should question if they are truly a fan of Zimbabwe.

He was the better version of Steve Waugh. Better because he always scored in pressure cooker situations and that too against good bowling attacks and a poor tail. Just look at his exploits against Proteas where he was stranded on 199* to back a ton in first inn.

When he made his debut, he was a flamboyant player putting up 6 run/over stands at the top with Gobby. He followed that with mature head and down-to-earth character. He himself has said lot of times that he is an avg player but that's his humility. He even once said that he learned batting while watching Manjrekar scoring ton in the debut test but thats again the humility of Flowers which run in family.

[andybligz93]

hhm i think all the effort you put into this forum is great and makes it interesting but your point is wrong my friend , the only experience player i could see making the team would be ewing and duffin , matsi is doing really well but we have seen what hes like internationally , rainsford has been jumped by a lot of people and we saw panyangara at the world cup get cartered. for once we pulled something amazing off and it wasnt brendan taylor having to do it himself it was a new comer who hopefully becomes a wonderful experienced player for us in malcolm waller. i havent seen a person bat that well under pressure for zim besides taylor in years . the likes of jarvis,vitori , ervine , waller , mutizwa , cremer , ncubu , chatara ,mushangwe are all going to be good players and have shown talent its just the inconsistency that comes with being inxeperienced , the more they play the more they are going to learn and realise there strenghts. i promise you a player like matsi being in good form atm might come in and get back to back 50s but nxt tour he will do nothing thats the sort of player he was and always will be look at his stats.ervine out of touch still manages to make a rusty 30 a matsi out of form gets under 10. the experience will come HHM just a matter of persisting and finding the right convo.