[Match Thread] New Zealand vs Zimbabwe, Only Test

[betterdays]

And the Bangladeshi sides that Rainsford were bowling to were even more mediocre than the current one. I have never seen any evidence from Rainsford either domestically or nationally that would suggest he is going to come in and take 5 wicket bags for the national side. Jarvis has issues, but at least he has put in some match winning performances. The same goes for Vitori also.

the Bd side now is more talented but also far more rash - ever since Ashraful's match-winning knock vs Australia they've not sought to control an innings but encouraged abandon (it sort of culminated in Iqbal's backfiring goading of Vitori). I am a BD fan (through empathy) and Mortaza, Rafique, Basher, Ahmed (only on his day), Javed, Nafees were no mugs ... i will concede that the new team has some rising stars - along with one clearly risen one - in their openers, Mamadullah and a few more. I'm not sure K_BD meant to refer to Jarvis 'running through' BD - i have to assume not...[or that you meant Jarvis has put in a matchwinning performance in ODIs - if that's even what we're talking about] but, yes, Vitori certainly contributed match-winning performances vs BD, something aydee suggests we should celebrate (and I agree). I will be interested how he goes in one dayers ...

[betterdays]

As for Rainsford, yes, I can confidently say he's not close to the same class as Jarvis and perhaps Vitori. During the ZIM wilderness years of 2005-2011he sent down plenty of deliveries to "mediocre" Bangladesh, and never once ran through them (if I recall correctly). Jarvis and Vitori haven't played a quarter of those matches and have.

It's nice to see some feist but you really do need to clarify this a little - Jarvis' returns were horrible vs BD yet you rate him higher than Vitori in your comment? Vitori did indeed run though them - twice yet the comparison with Rainsford, who has not, is a 'perhaps'. If you are judging them vs BD alone then Vitori is the best Zim bowler ever i'd say. Rainsford, having played 16 matches vs the top 8 nations, maintains a reasonable average of 31 (it's not grat but no-one fared very well in the 'wilderness years'.

It's all hypothetical anyway - he's not in NZ and Vitori has some games to show the same wicket-taking ability he showed vs BD and good luck to him

[CrimsonAvenger]

Some valid points there Kriterion_BD, and quite a good analysis from a neutral point of view.

[Kriterion_BD]

As for Rainsford, yes, I can confidently say he's not close to the same class as Jarvis and perhaps Vitori. During the ZIM wilderness years of 2005-2011he sent down plenty of deliveries to "mediocre" Bangladesh, and never once ran through them (if I recall correctly). Jarvis and Vitori haven't played a quarter of those matches and have.

It's nice to see some feist but you really do need to clarify this a little - Jarvis' returns were horrible vs BD yet you rate him higher than Vitori in your comment? Vitori did indeed run though them - twice yet the comparison with Rainsford, who has not, is a 'perhaps'. If you are judging them vs BD alone then Vitori is the best Zim bowler ever i'd say. Rainsford, having played 16 matches vs the top 8 nations, maintains a reasonable average of 31 (it's not grat but no-one fared very well in the 'wilderness years'.

It's all hypothetical anyway - he's not in NZ and Vitori has some games to show the same wicket-taking ability he showed vs BD and good luck to him

Both Jarvis and Vitori had 5ers for the lone Test back in August. Maybe he didn't run through us, but he delieverd a performance instrumental in a win. I doubt Rainsford would have done that, or even Mpofu for that matter. Thats all I'm saying.

As for Chigumbura, I forgot to include him in my analysis. If you must play him, play him at 8 where anything he provides with the bat is a bonus and he can be used to bowl a few overs of medium pace to spell some rest for the pacers. But his bowling isn't good enough to warrant a spot on its own, and his batting has been shambolic enough to deserve being at #8 at best.

[hhm]

Kriterion, it's in your best interests to talk up some of the players who supposedly did the damage to Bangladesh, afterall, it justifies why you were hammered. i don't think my colleagues here should view it as a positive that you're showing so much confidance in our lads, DrSitu's standards can be forgiven considering what India&indeed that great trinity is going through!

For your information, Mpofu did the real damage in that Test, so don't devalue him in that way, and one wouldn't be wrong in arguing that over two innings, Elton was the best bowler, just no wickets to show for it.

No need for me to continue arguing out such facts, my facts(nonsense) are there for you to see. There are plenty more matches in NZ, so we'll see if McLean Park was a once off, and check in a year's time as well to see if their progress reflects an upward curve!

bangladesh will go down to Zim in 7 months. I keenly await your comments about your own players. Unconsciously, that should reveal how you truly feel about our players.

[Kriterion_BD]

Kriterion, it's in your best interests to talk up some of the players who supposedly did the damage to Bangladesh, afterall, it justifies why you were hammered. i don't think my colleagues here should view it as a positive that you're showing so much confidance in our lads, DrSitu's standards can be forgiven considering what India&indeed that great trinity is going through!

Not quite, H Masakadza also hit a century against us in the first innings...I have no intentions of writing him up because of that innings. I don't see anything special about his batting. Sorry. Same will be said of Charles Coventry. The man hit 194* against us once, and I will admit he's nothing special either. Just a fluke knock on a flat "Indian" like batting surface. And his team still lost. If I'm in the interest of hyping up anyone who does well against BD at some point I'd have had to mention Hammy and Coventry, a one time world record holder. But I won't.

For your information, Mpofu did the real damage in that Test, so don't devalue him in that way, and one wouldn't be wrong in arguing that over two innings, Elton was the best bowler, just no wickets to show for it.

I didn't devalue Mpofu, I stated he fits in nicely as the third seamer although he will never run through any sides except maybe Bangladesh, and even then only rarely. But he has experience and bowls a tidy line and length which is useful to build pressure for the more penetrative bowlers in the side.

No need for me to continue arguing out such facts, my facts(nonsense) are there for you to see. There are plenty more matches in NZ, so we'll see if McLean Park was a once off, and check in a year's time as well to see if their progress reflects an upward curve!

Fine. But the argument is not whether the current bunch are world beaters, no one said that. The argument is whether the replacements, your replacements, would be performing significantly better than the current bunch. Thats the argument. Can you point out an instance of Duffin or Ewing playing match winning knocks against top sides in a chase of 320+ like Taylor and Waller have recently?

bangladesh will go down to Zim in 7 months. I keenly await your comments about your own players. Unconsciously, that should reveal how you truly feel about our players.

I'm willing to put my butt on the line and say, you're on! I think Bangladesh will learn from the mistakes of their previous ZIM tour and exert just enough application to squeak by. Shakib and Tamim both had quiet tours last time and its tough to imagine they'd both have the same a second consecutive time. You might have a shot at Harare, but I think we'll own in Bulawayo which is almost been a home away from home for us the past few years.

Personally, I don't care what Zimbabwe side is picked...I'm not a ZIM fan. It doesn't matter if the guys I "like" are there (Jarvis, Vitori, Taylor, Ervine, Chakabva, Cremer) or the guys I have no clue about (Duffin, Ewing, et al). When you play Bangladesh, I'd like to see comprehensive and clinical shut downs of everyone, even more so now after we lost a Test to you guys by a wide margin.

[FlowerPower]

No need for me to continue arguing out such facts, my facts(nonsense) are there for you to see. There are plenty more matches in NZ, so we'll see if McLean Park was a once off, and check in a year's time as well to see if their progress reflects an upward curve!

Fine. But the argument is not whether the current bunch are world beaters, no one said that. The argument is whether the replacements, your replacements, would be performing significantly better than the current bunch. Thats the argument. Can you point out an instance of Duffin or Ewing playing match winning knocks against top sides in a chase of 320+ like Taylor and Waller have recently?

That there is the crux of the matter and you have articulated it very well Kriterion_BD!

[hhm]

About 12 years ago, the late Trevor 'Baby Chingokes' Madondo, then a 24yr old, lined up against the same opposition which annihilated us in their backyard. As with most of our current batsmen who had played 3 Tests since our return, he was playing in his 3rd Test so relatively similar. Only, he didn't have the added benefit of having played against the same opposition.

Even then, he excelled, better than our top batsmen - Taylor, Taibu & Hami, who despite the greater number of Tests they'd played, plus the countless number of ODI series they'd been involved in both home and way against much better opposition and players, totally flopped, and were unable to live up to his standards!

He may have been the junior batsman in the lineup, but he was at a slight advantage, because he had much senior and capable batsmen before him, and came on when the score was 196/4. Thankfully he wasn't sabotaged as either as an opener or at 1st drop, and he made the most of it, playing what looks to be the most fluid knock in our innings. Still he was declared on(in the name of pursuing an impossible victory), when he was on his way to a fine century, so the history of conspiracies is deep rooted!

The limelight may have been ripped from him in his last Test prior to his passing, but his exploits and opportunities he opened up continue to be celebrated to this day. Such a pity that 5 innings later, the boys still haven't done something relevant to dedicate to him! Collectively they have brought dishonour instead!

Has the beginning of 2012 brought a start to such lows never imagined ahead of of this tour, or will drastic steps be taken to arrest the situation?