Future tour rumours

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sam_ahm
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Re: Future tour rumours

Post by sam_ahm »

Kriterion_BD wrote:
Sat May 07, 2022 5:48 pm
Googly wrote:
Sat May 07, 2022 9:22 am
If you wanted a competition with real meaning imagine one with the top 3 Associates and the lowest ranked full member playing for a full membership slot not just a WC berth! Then you'd see people frantically scrabbling for real solutions.
I suspect there aren't any "real" solutions left. At least none that are viable. Its like trying to find the square root of a negative number.

At the end of the day, its the players who will determine the results. The two questions to ask are a) should a different squad have been named and then b) would those players have played any differently. The answer to the latter is emphatically no. I think any of the 4 or 5 developmental squads that ZC could have assembled for a tour of Nepal would have performed similarly. They have snuck past the finish line twice, and then possibly also gotten hammered once or twice, just as the current team is doing.

As for the other idea, I've never been a fan of promotion/relegation for full membership or Test status. Not unless there are 14 or 15 sides (meaning considerable gaps in quality between the top half and the bottom half). For the ODI Super League it was OK because if you can't crack the top 12 in a round robin league, the chance of relegation is apt.

The ICC's short coming has been that they haven't provided any pathway to the likes of Ireland, Afghanistan, and Zimbabwe to qualify for the WTC. Ideally, they would have given those 3 de-facto Associates a criteria for how to get into the WTC or came up with a scenario in which all 12 are in the WTC but still ensured that your marque India/Australia/England series go on every cycle. Less than ideal, but still very good would have been if the ICC created a seperate league for ZIM/IRE/AFG to play regular Test competitions even in the absence of any immediate promotion to the WTC. Right now there is nothing, and I am certain the fans of all three countries would prefer something over nothing. Personally, I would be very intrigued by such a competition especially if it involved a mace and prize money of its own.
Very valid points. Good post.

secretzimbo
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Re: Future tour rumours

Post by secretzimbo »

The problem is, when you say we've been rebuilding for 20 years, the truth is for vast periods of that time there hasn't actually been any building happening at all. 'We are rebuilding' gets trotted out as an excuse after a loss, but nothing has actually been happening a lot of the time. We've had spurts of activity and periods of hope and people with new ideas every now and then but usually it's all come crashing down and not much has actually progressed on the ground.

The last six months has been very good by our standards - if we look at club cricket happening more regularly and in more locations and provinces, with seemingly decent organisation. The franchise domestic season was the lengthiest we've had for quite a long time, and again better organised. The administration seem to be making the right noises around development. I know there has been several rounds of level 1 and 2 coaching courses in the past 1-2 months in a few different locations. There was even a scorers course last week! There's been a bit of money put into some grounds as well. Mutare looked in very good shape for that club comp last week.

Additionally it feels, for the first time in a very long time, that everyone is working together and trying to pull in the same direction. The national women are training full time at Campbell's academy. Which suggests wounds being healed. The fact that Houghton and Brent are involved and Klusener has deemed the board redeemable enough to give them a second chance does as well. There's a better atmosphere around than we've had for a while.

So if we talk about 'rebuilding' - there does seem to be a fair bit of it actually happening now. The problem is - and this is always our problem - we need years of this, to start feeling the effects. We can't just have this positive stuff for six months and then implode and have to start again. If we can have 5 years of this sort of stuff, and more, then we might actually start to see some results. But we never seem able to sustain it.

Of course there are national elections next year and presumably board elections at some point. So it'll all kick off again and we'll be back to square one. :lol: :lol:

As for the ongoing series, couple of games left - lets see if the boys can redeem themselves first. We all expected drubbings in both series when we saw the squads so it's not a shock overall. Although today was exceptionally horrific, both games. It's funny that when Rajput signed we were told he is, quote, 'a Genius T20 specialist'. :lol:

Anyone reading this who is disappointed in the result, imagine if you had driven for many hours to get to sports club to watch today? I did! It was awful. Still, at least the beer was nice. :lol:

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Rajkumar Sharma
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Re: Future tour rumours

Post by Rajkumar Sharma »

Kriterion_BD wrote:
Sat May 07, 2022 5:48 pm
Googly wrote:
Sat May 07, 2022 9:22 am
If you wanted a competition with real meaning imagine one with the top 3 Associates and the lowest ranked full member playing for a full membership slot not just a WC berth! Then you'd see people frantically scrabbling for real solutions.
I suspect there aren't any "real" solutions left. At least none that are viable. Its like trying to find the square root of a negative number.

At the end of the day, its the players who will determine the results. The two questions to ask are a) should a different squad have been named and then b) would those players have played any differently. The answer to the latter is emphatically no. I think any of the 4 or 5 developmental squads that ZC could have assembled for a tour of Nepal would have performed similarly. They have snuck past the finish line twice, and then possibly also gotten hammered once or twice, just as the current team is doing.

As for the other idea, I've never been a fan of promotion/relegation for full membership or Test status. Not unless there are 14 or 15 sides (meaning considerable gaps in quality between the top half and the bottom half). For the ODI Super League it was OK because if you can't crack the top 12 in a round robin league, the chance of relegation is apt.

The ICC's short coming has been that they haven't provided any pathway to the likes of Ireland, Afghanistan, and Zimbabwe to qualify for the WTC. Ideally, they would have given those 3 de-facto Associates a criteria for how to get into the WTC or came up with a scenario in which all 12 are in the WTC but still ensured that your marque India/Australia/England series go on every cycle. Less than ideal, but still very good would have been if the ICC created a seperate league for ZIM/IRE/AFG to play regular Test competitions even in the absence of any immediate promotion to the WTC. Right now there is nothing, and I am certain the fans of all three countries would prefer something over nothing. Personally, I would be very intrigued by such a competition especially if it involved a mace and prize money of its own.
Yes, WTC Division 2 with Zim, Ireland, Afghans and 6 other associates will be a great concept with relegation system in WTC

TapsC2
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Re: Future tour rumours

Post by TapsC2 »

We just don't have enough depth to name 2 squads whilst leaving out some of our best players. We probably only have about 20 guys who are good enough. This is why 20 year olds can walk straight into the national team.

The real issue is that there was a 7 or 8 year gap where our cricket really suffered. The players who are between 31 and 25 right now aren't good enough, especially the batsmen. We are suffering for that now. The only way we survive that issue is importing players. It will happen sooner rather than later, these guys believe it or not aren't stupid. Once the money is on the line they will do something about it.

secretzimbo
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Re: Future tour rumours

Post by secretzimbo »

We won’t be actively importing players.

But it’s getting to the point where several are struggling in England and not even getting games. A few might come back out of their own volition.

But if you can’t even get a game for Leicester, Derby or Northants - are you really good enough to massively improve Zimbabwe in international cricket?

Googly
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Re: Future tour rumours

Post by Googly »

Top drawer 20 year olds make a few big teams, it's not just here. By 20 you've generally got your quota of ability, what remains is the mental side, maturity and experience.

Our local cricket is just not up to scratch. Madhevere is a fine example. He was touted as the saviour of our cricket and came out of that u19 set up looking really promising, but despite a fair amount of exposure he hasn't really kicked on. I'm not saying it's too late for him, I'm just pointing out he's falling into that Zim mold of being ok but not exceptional and as a fact theyre grooming him for captaincy before they know if hes going to be any good or not. Thats a mix of desperation and ignorance right there. Actually Shumba, with less batting talent looks more composed than Madhevere, which shows that cricket is played upstairs.

ZC continue to turn their backs on the U19's.
Bennett and Welch showed huge promise as batsmen and should have been given immediate exposure in our domestic cricket. Actually they should have immediately been put into our quality Academy under Houghton and Brent, but of course we don't have one. The only country without one. :lol: You reap what you sow. Those two guys would be getting proper treatment in another country, even a blind man can see how much potential they have. Colour continues to be a major factor because Shumba, Myers and Madhevere from the previous u19's were given royal treatment and these two lads are every bit as good.

They both should have been on that Nepal tour. They showed promise against a strong Namibian side, yet got limited exposure, Welch Jr has huge potential as an opener. He basically won that T20 domestic final for Mash Eagles and actually looked a lot more composed than Madhevere, averages well north of 50 in the Vigne Cup and shows promise as a keeper. Do we need opening batsmen and keepers or don't we? :lol: He's only just turned 18, if a black kid had done that it would be headline news :lol: yet it was barely worthy of mention.

And they send Cephas to Nepal? Thats a face saving exercise and not a developmental strategy. He comes off now and then in spectacular fashion and wins you the game, but he's not the future. He probably should have been there from the outset, but don't send him to save the blushes after you're getting humped. That sends him a poor message as well. They're saying we know you're better than these guys but you're past the sell by date but save us :lol:
My hero, Darren Stevens is 45 and should probably be in the English set up now. :lol:

They're hoping Madande will come good, and he well might, I have my doubts. At the higher levels cricket is a mental game and it looks like he will struggle. I'd be concerned if i was a selector after watching him. Surely have a back-up plan for a keeper batsman. One option is Shardendorf. He's not going to get exposure at Notts with Moores as the encumbant, he'll be their reserve keeper there for a while, or may get picked up by another County. He's just got back to back centuries as well. That second one was a top innings, better than a run a ball. I watched his 4's on a highlight reel. He'd walk into our domestic leagues and dominate. He was thereabouts with Shumba, Madhevere, Myers, Bennett and Welch Jr at U19 and is now well ahead of them all because of superior coaching and level of cricket. People can bluster all they like but he's gone to the next level because he's in a thoroughly professional environment. If we cant match our national set up to a County set up then there's a major problem. ZC keep thinking they only need one replacement and it keeps backfiring and there's no learning curve at all. They want an international side that only loses by small margins on a budget :lol: I'd like to think they'll learn but they won't. They don't need to, nobody cares and the money continues to miraculously appear, its like being 5 and believing Father Xmas will come for the rest of your life.

I'll bet my bottom dollar that if they'd offered Bennett a pathway here he'd be here right now. If they fail they fail, but you have to give them a chance and a monthly salary to eke out a living, unless of course ZC feel that a batsman only needs to practice twice a week for 3 months of the year? Clearly they believe that because thats how the payment system is structured.
People with options are not going to practice 2 hours a day for the next 10 years for free so the chefs can drive VX 200's. :lol: They spend more money on petrol on "company" vehicles than they're prepared to spend on salaries for young men with real potential, that is a sad state of affairs.
Only the guys here with absolutely zero options will present themselves for games year in and year out for a few hundred bucks a month for 3 months of the year, and we keep seeing that no matter how often you reshuffle them not one is going to emerge as a decent international.
Unfortunately this greedy mentality will never change and neither will our results. In fact theyre going to get worse.

As you say, Taps, the current policy of only selecting guys showing "allegiance" to domestic cricket cant work. We've seen all of them and they all struggle and will continue to do so. Theres still time to persevere with this strategy and they should. The only way for people who dont really understand is for the lesson to be an extremely painful one. The cricket World moves forward and we go slightly backwards with each passing year. We have become entirely irrelevant in the cricketing world, and we have not justified our full membership and the significant money we receive for a long time. There surely has to be a time limit on this?

Googly
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Re: Future tour rumours

Post by Googly »

secretzimbo wrote:
Sun May 08, 2022 7:05 am
We won’t be actively importing players.

But it’s getting to the point where several are struggling in England and not even getting games. A few might come back out of their own volition.

But if you can’t even get a game for Leicester, Derby or Northants - are you really good enough to massively improve Zimbabwe in international cricket?
That's a good point and clearly what's been discussed.
There's 5 guys there- Byrom, Curran, Welch, Muyeye and Schardendorf that are good players.
Most batters take time to mature. Byrom has had the longest run of it, had bursts of great cricket, moved to Glamorgan and hasn't had a start there as he's injured.
This guy is a serious batsman. I don't know why he hasn't fired.

Welch was basically out for a year with injury and hasn't had opportunity. Hard to understand why as Leicestershire get destroyed by everyone they come up against. He will get white ball games I'm sure and we will see this year how he goes. Finally. I think he will probably get the second block of red ball towards the end of the season. Their coach perseveres with a losing team in every format and Welch continues to make runs in Two's. I know he feels mightily aggrieved that marginal players continue to get extended runs.

Muyeye, as of yet, has not fired, but he probably will. It may be that white ball is his format.

Curran is probably the guy with the least ability out of these guys, and has not secured a first team berth, yet fires fairly regularly and is a good player.

So are these guys prospective international stars? Possibly not, but we will clearly never know. Are they better than the guys we've got here (Williams, Ervine, Raza excluded)?
Hands down by a country mile. There is no comparison, of that I'm 1000% certain. Muyeye, Welch and Byrom had extraordinary school careers so they were miles ahead of anyone here, they've been in professional environments playing hundreds of quality games for years, so they can't not be at the next level.
Would they turn us into a winning international side? Probably not. Would they make us more competitive and make our regular losses not massacres? Absolutely.
If the philosophy is it doesn't matter how much you get murdered by then we must continue as we are.
In Flowers' days we were never a winning side!! We were a competitive side that was taken seriously and respected by all who played us.
Getting battered to a pulp by Associates and 3rd string SA sides clearly is palatable. If it happens often enough you get used to it, it's like eating chickens' feet.

Clearly ZC are hoping they fail and come home with their tails between their legs to play for $200 a month. It well might work. :lol: What a proactive business strategy! :lol:

Googly
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Re: Future tour rumours

Post by Googly »

Back to that Flower era. Those guys got dicked for a long time before they started to figure stuff out. But the point is there were players there with the capacity to claw their way up, and there were enough of them because its a team sport. They also had some serious support structures.

You can shuffle our existing guys around for as long as you like and nothing will change. There's a handful that will learn, the rest simply don't have the goods. We are short of players, particularly batsmen. We will see how our post Big Five era rolls out soon enough, its upon us. Buckle up, its going to be depressing.

secretzimbo
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Re: Future tour rumours

Post by secretzimbo »

Googly wrote:
Sun May 08, 2022 8:15 am
Top drawer 20 year olds make a few big teams, it's not just here. By 20 you've generally got your quota of ability, what remains is the mental side, maturity and experience.
Surely an actually decent coach and stable coaching setup could make a really big difference on this - the mental and maturity side. Somehow we still have an absolute fraud in the job who turns up once every six months and doesn't seem to do much even when he does bother to show his face. It's very clear from what I've heard that the players consider and even call Matsi head coach. And whilst he's a nice guy, he obviously isn't leading international head coach material. Klusener may be able to help, but it really is a mystery why this Indian fraud remains.
ZC continue to turn their backs on the U19's.
Bennett and Welch showed huge promise as batsmen and should have been given immediate exposure in our domestic cricket. Actually they should have immediately been put into our quality Academy under Houghton and Brent, but of course we don't have one. The only country without one. :lol: You reap what you sow. Those two guys would be getting proper treatment in another country, even a blind man can see how much potential they have. Colour continues to be a major factor because Shumba, Myers and Madhevere from the previous u19's were given royal treatment and these two lads are every bit as good. They both should have been on that Nepal tour. They showed promise against a strong Namibian side, yet got limited exposure, Welch Jr has huge potential as an opener. He basically won that T20 domestic final for Mash Eagles and actually looked a lot more composed than Madhevere, averages well north of 50 in the Vigne Cup and shows promise as a keeper. Do we need opening batsmen and keepers or don't we? :lol: He's only just turned 18, if a black kid had done that it would be headline news :lol: yet it was barely worthy of mention.
I don't disagree, but Welch did play the entire T20 tournament. I think he's still in his final year of school so it's unlikely he would be going to Nepal for a few weeks at this point, to be fair. Let's see if he appears in franchise next season. I would think Nick's difficulties getting in to England might have put Matt off that. I don't know if the Bennett's are interested - as they haven't even played club. I think they are in/going to SA for the short-term. You're right though, and they should be making an effort to retain them of course.
Only the guys here with absolutely zero options will present themselves for games year in and year out for a few hundred bucks a month for 3 months of the year, and we keep seeing that no matter how often you reshuffle them not one is going to emerge as a decent international.
This is it in a nut shell.

Myers was smart and had options, and he's gone.
Wes isn't very bright. Stayed.
Marumani is apparently thick as buffalo shit :lol: He's stayed.

Anyone with any other option - be that as a passport or a brain, will be gone.

I can't get over the Myers loss. I thought throwing him in to each format last year would have worked and convinced him. I don't know if they offered him a full national contract. They pay well, but there's only about 15 available.

But he's smart and quite a pushy family so I guess that's that. The uni he is at doesn't even appear to have a cricket team. What a loss he is. Bawa will probably go the same way.
Last edited by secretzimbo on Sun May 08, 2022 9:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

secretzimbo
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Re: Future tour rumours

Post by secretzimbo »

Googly wrote:
Sun May 08, 2022 8:51 am
Curran is probably the guy with the least ability out of these guys, and has not secured a first team berth, yet fires fairly regularly and is a good player.
I don't think he's a world class player but I'd still love for him, once, to play for Zim jut for the nostalgia of the Curran name. He's out of contract this year so I can see him ending up here if he runs out of options. He's done well in our domestics the last two years but clearly not on the level of the other overseas guys. He wasn't born here so I don't think he will have a passport? I'd say he's the most realistic of the lot though. Maybe Welch Sr one day, but not any time soon. The 2027 World Cup might be a big draw? If we haven't completely capitulated by then! :lol:

Byrom will probably end up trying for Ireland if it doesn't work out at his new county. That's crazy though, I watched the stream of that game PJ played earlier in the week. If you ever need comforting about the standard of our domestic cricket, watch theirs! Bowling in particular is park level. Those teams would get humiliated in the Logan Cup. But I suppose a guaranteed stable income and a better quality of life is important.
We are short of players, particularly batsmen. We will see how our post Big Five era rolls out soon enough, its upon us. Buckle up, its going to be depressing.
Depresses me just thinking about it. Quite possible we lose all of Ervine, Williams, Raza and Regis in just over a years time. Unless Shumba and Wes basically double their current ability and form, it is going to be brutal. They might convince Reggie and Sikandar to stay an extra year or two I suppose. Not going to be fun at all.

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