Zimbabwe Emerging vs Namibia

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zimbos_05
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Re: Zimbabwe Emerging vs Namibia

Post by zimbos_05 »

secretzimbo wrote:
Mon Aug 23, 2021 11:02 am
I get that people are collectively scarred and terrified by the likes of Chari, Chibhabha, Mutumbami etc - but the fact is - and this is a fact - we've played a lot of senior cricket this year and those guys haven't been involved in any of it. Chari and Chibhabha have missed out on the last 4 or 5 national squads and Mutumbami the last 3. Kasuza & Kaia have never been involved in limited overs squads before. As I have very clearly demonstrated, there's about 12 or 13 people who have been recently picked for their batting alone ahead of any of these guys. Unless we suddenly have 6 or more injuries amongst batsman, none of these guys are anywhere near the team.

I respect opinions Kriterion. But there's very clear fact that there at least 22 guys who are being consistently selected ahead of any of the guys in Namibia. This is just fact from current and recent selections. Some of the players in Namibia are third choice, some are fourth choice. A week ago I bet half the poster son here would never have heard of Steven Saul, Bennett or Tendekai Mataranyika. They probably would have been about 10th choice for their positions a week ago.

I actually reckon even Bangladesh would struggle in Namibia if they sent third or fourth choice players. So would Ireland, Afghanistan and probably even the Windies. So our depth isn't fantastic, but who is surprised by that? The fact we could field two full XI's before any of these guys were picked is decent depth for a small cricketing country with its multitude of problems. Not even mentioning the dozen or two dozen players unavailable overseas.


There's three points here;

- People are being overly fearful that some of these guys are near the national team when they pretty clearly are not anymore.
- Namibia are a much better team than people think.
- The use of the word 'Emerging' for this team was wrong, yes. In reality it should have been Zimbabwe C. I think there might be some regulation about using 'A' etc if it isn't against a full member, so I guess they just plumped with 'Emerging' - probably the first word they thought of. Yeah its frustrating, as half the squad aren't emerging. And yeah, I'm as frustrated as any of you about these guys being involved this week. But who else do we have other than sending an entirely U19 or unknown side, which presumably Namibia would have been very pissed off about and wouldn't stand for, seeing as this is crucial prep for their world cup.

The tour was disappointing. I'm disappointed. But it's not 'embarrassing' and I'm certainly not too worried about it really.
I see where you are coming from, but the fact is, whether you name this as an Emerging side or the C Side, the level of players in this side should have been much higher than those names suggest.

If this was truly an Emerging side, then even if we sent an U19's side that would be fine because that is the aim of an emerging side. Namibia would have known this too especially as it was agreed to be an Emerging side being sent.

Kasuza and Kaia may not have limited overs experience at International level, but they are International level players, and we so recently. ZC would be to blame here too. Why are we sending over players who are not part of the Limited overs side for a limited overs series. In saying that, players who have faced some of the best bowlers in the world should still be performing at a better level regardless of the format when you are playing against sides that are at a much lower level than what you have experienced.

The fact that you can't find any players to make up an Emerging side other than U19's suggest that there are no players in the 20-25 bracket which would then suggest that these players make up our national side depth. I wouldn't expect 6 guys to be out at once, but we all know too well how many players we have had out injured in the last year and a bit, so to think that we won't have injury issues is a little too optimistic.

It's embarassing to me for two reasons.
1) We sent an "emerging side" and that side had former national captains and internationally capped players. Where is our depth?
2) Those players could not even perform against a Namibian side, who whilst may have improved, are definitely not world beaters. Can you imagine if South Africa had sent a side with players who have international expereince (even if they were third teamers as you say) and they lost.

It is not so much that we lost, but the manner in which we lost, and what the selection of these individuals represents for Zim cricket. Remember, we lost a T20 by more than 140 runs. No one loses T20s by that margin, or should be.

I think we will disagree on this topic for a long time and I get that you are trying to come at it full of perspective and optimism to write this off as not as something important for ZC, but the series actually paints a darker picture because a Test playing nation should never be losing by 140 plus runs, even if a 3rd strength side.

secretzimbo
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Re: Zimbabwe Emerging vs Namibia

Post by secretzimbo »

We are going to keep disagreeing haha.

But Kriterion, Zimbos_05; I think something we can all agree; that we are all relieved that these guys aren't in Ireland! A year ago, they probably would be. So I'm pleased they were in Namibia rather than Ireland, at least. I think the continued failure of them this week will probably (thankfully) mean they are even further from first team selection now. Wes, Shumba, Myers & Marumani in the main squad are infinitely better picks (on both talent and 'potential') than Chibhabha, Chari, Mutumbami & Maruma.

Positives in terms of our player pool and depth going forward is that Mumba had a good tour after a year or two in the wilderness, and Nyauchi showed in the last match that he can challenge Ngarava & Chatara for a place.

Five more promising U19's coming through as well; Saul, Welch, Bennett, Nyangani, Mataranyika - who hopefully over the coming two years can develop and move towards the first team as well, to push some of the known failures even further down the order. There's at least half a dozen other lads in that age group that are of similar talent levels to these guys from what I've seen and heard as well.


Zimbos' point about the age 20-25 bracket is true of course, in fact we have only a handful of talented players between 20-30. We all know the reasons etc. Thankfully The New Four (Wes & co) are great, but as I've said on here before, their talent and efforts will be a waste unless we start producing (and importantly; retaining) four or five top quality players like them in EVERY u19 batch, every two years. That's how we will create depth for the future. I'm pretty confident about the upcoming batch. Then we'll see after that, and see if we can retain them as well.

TapsC2
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Re: Zimbabwe Emerging vs Namibia

Post by TapsC2 »

secretzimbo wrote:
Mon Aug 23, 2021 11:36 pm
We are going to keep disagreeing haha.

But Kriterion, Zimbos_05; I think something we can all agree; that we are all relieved that these guys aren't in Ireland! A year ago, they probably would be. So I'm pleased they were in Namibia rather than Ireland, at least. I think the continued failure of them this week will probably (thankfully) mean they are even further from first team selection now. Wes, Shumba, Myers & Marumani in the main squad are infinitely better picks (on both talent and 'potential') than Chibhabha, Chari, Mutumbami & Maruma.

Positives in terms of our player pool and depth going forward is that Mumba had a good tour after a year or two in the wilderness, and Nyauchi showed in the last match that he can challenge Ngarava & Chatara for a place.

Five more promising U19's coming through as well; Saul, Welch, Bennett, Nyangani, Mataranyika - who hopefully over the coming two years can develop and move towards the first team as well, to push some of the known failures even further down the order. There's at least half a dozen other lads in that age group that are of similar talent levels to these guys from what I've seen and heard as well.


Zimbos' point about the age 20-25 bracket is true of course, in fact we have only a handful of talented players between 20-30. We all know the reasons etc. Thankfully The New Four (Wes & co) are great, but as I've said on here before, their talent and efforts will be a waste unless we start producing (and importantly; retaining) four or five top quality players like them in EVERY u19 batch, every two years. That's how we will create depth for the future. I'm pretty confident about the upcoming batch. Then we'll see after that, and see if we can retain them as well.
Does Nyangani still qualify for the next World Cup? How old is he?

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Re: Zimbabwe Emerging vs Namibia

Post by sloandog »

The 2016 bunch were a talented set of lads.
I was hoping to see Matigmu play for the national side at some stage, or perhaps Snyder in the T20's.

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Re: Zimbabwe Emerging vs Namibia

Post by sloandog »

Either way, there's more depth right now in 2021 than there was 4 years ago, and that is excellent to see.
I'm just hoping the board keep up their elections because, minus a few rogue decisions, they've been spot on

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Re: Zimbabwe Emerging vs Namibia

Post by sloandog »

Selections **

Kriterion_BD
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Re: Zimbabwe Emerging vs Namibia

Post by Kriterion_BD »

secretzimbo wrote:
Mon Aug 23, 2021 7:11 pm
I mean, Mumba has missed out on the last 5 or 6 national squads so whilst he may be a first teamer in your view, it's just categorically not the case in reality. Not before this Namibia tour anyway. Maybe he will be after his good performance this week - he's obviously 'emerged'!

It's over 2 years since Ndlovu played a white ball game for the national team. Wellington, Chisoro and Chipungu are clearly ahead in the selection order and I'd argue Burl & Raza would probably be picked for their spin alone ahead of him as well. Ainsley did well in 1 of the six games but yeah - spin really is the one area we could do with 'finding' someone!
Let's see if we can agree on a objective criteria for determining a players level (first teamer, A teamer, Emerging/Academy "third" teamer). If we can, then it gives me an excuse to peruse cricinfo and compile some data.

You seem to suggest recent international caps as the determinant. I gueas the easiest would be percentage of ZIM's intl matches played since Jan 1 2018. Eg if Brendon Taylor has played 90% of ZIMs ODIs, it would indicate he's a first team selection.

So anyone who's played 60% or more of the games in a given format would be a "first teamer". 25-59% an A teamer, and less than 25% an emerging teams player. Does that sound fair?
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secretzimbo
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Re: Zimbabwe Emerging vs Namibia

Post by secretzimbo »

Not really fair, no. I don’t really see how someone being picked in January 2018 is relevant to whether they are part of the picture now or not.

3.5 years is a long time in Zimbabwe. Hell, even 1 year is. Ask Chamu, who this time last year was our national captain and is now not even in our top 12 batters.

Kriterion_BD
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Re: Zimbabwe Emerging vs Namibia

Post by Kriterion_BD »

secretzimbo wrote:
Tue Aug 24, 2021 1:23 am
Not really fair, no. I don’t really see how someone being picked in January 2018 is relevant to whether they are part of the picture now or not.

3.5 years is a long time in Zimbabwe. Hell, even 1 year is. Ask Chamu, who this time last year was our national captain and is now not even in our top 12 batters.
What do you suggest as an adequate time frame. Jan 2019 onwards? Remember 1 year lost due to COVID.
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Re: Zimbabwe Emerging vs Namibia

Post by CrimsonAvenger »

You guys are debating this no end, on whether the guys who were in Namibia were players 16-30 or 22-36 or 31-45 or whatever. The fundamental truth is that we do not have the bench strength. Most emerging players of last couple of years have become first teamers now. The numbers being debated hardly matters. We need to look beyond that and accept that we do not have backup - call them A team or the Emerging side or the Board Presidents XI or Takashinga Tallawahs or whatever.

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