Zimbabwe V Ireland 4th T20I [Match Thread]

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andrewn9
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Re: Zimbabwe V Ireland 4th T20I [Match Thread]

Post by andrewn9 »

It was over a year after the WC qualifying debacle. I think Zim can't cope with the seaming pitches in Europe. Seem to fare better on the flatter pitches at home or in Asia.

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eugene
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Re: Zimbabwe V Ireland 4th T20I [Match Thread]

Post by eugene »

I remember the Singapore tour quite well.
Neil Johnson, Alistair Campbell, Murray Goodwin, Andy Flower (w), Grant Flower, Dave Houghton, Guy Whittall, Heath Streak (c), Andy Blignaut, Ray Price, Eddo Brandes

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zimbos_05
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Re: Zimbabwe V Ireland 4th T20I [Match Thread]

Post by zimbos_05 »

slcricfan1 wrote:
Fri Sep 03, 2021 7:24 am

its a long process but fair enough. Agree to disagree
slcricfan1 wrote:
Fri Sep 03, 2021 7:24 am

its a long process but fair enough. Agree to disagree
Ok, I'm happy to discuss this. I've looked at the last three (including this one) T20 series Zim are played. These were against Pakistan, Bangladesh, and Ireland. I've selected the 4 batters under consideration. These are the runs that they have scored in each match of the series.

vs PAK

Madhevere: 14, 16, 59 - 29.6 / 127.14
Marumani: 0, 13, 35 - 16 / 104
Myers: DNP, DNP, DNP
Shumba: DNP, DNP, DNP

vs BAN

Madhevere: 23, 73, 54 - 50 / 129.31
Marumani: 7, 3, 27 - 12.3 / 115.62
Myers: 35, 26, 23 - 28 / 139.06
Shumba: DNP, DNP, DNP

vs IRE

Madhevere: 1, 21, 13, 6 - 10.25 / 105
Marumani: 1, 11, 14, 4 - 7.5 / 73.17
Myers: 10, 1, 14, 4 - 7.25 / 100
Shumba: 7, 46, 6, 6 - 16.25 / 100

The only guy who can really say he has done decently is Wesley. The rest have struggled to get any sort of decent runs. Myers could be argued that he had an ok series against Bangladesh, but his drop in the Ireland series suggests he is not quite there. In fact, they have all dropped in the Ireland series and that suggests none of them are up to the standard we want them to be at, or like to think that they are. I also don't like SR too much as it doesn't tell the full picture. Marumani has two SRs over 100, but probably 1 decent contribution out of 10 innings. Even scoring a 4 off 1 ball gives you an amazing SR, but you've not really contributed too much to the runs.

I'm not advocating we do away with these guys. I'm advocating a different approach to their development. Not one that throws them in at the deep end, asks them to swim, and when they don't, we fill the pool with more water and ask them to try harder. We all know that the big 4 will have to retire at some point, but they are not in horrible form. So the best thing to do is to balance that youth and experience, and to have a better structure for developing these younger guys.

If they are coming out and making the same mistakes over and over again, then the coaching and development structure is not working. I mentioned how Wes got out playing a cross batted shot with no foot movement in one of the matches, and some said he does that often. So he clearly has not learnt. Constantly putting players in the middle in international matches hoping they figure it out is a fool hardy approach that will not lead to the desired results, but rather a constant level of mediocrity that saw the likes of Sibanda, Hammy, Matsi all achieve.

I get the idea that things take time too, but not like this. If something isn't working, pull the player back. Work on what needs to be and bring him back in. All the big sides do that. Some may persist, but when they do, it's because there is a proven track record that shows it is a blip. In our case, these are not blips. These are consistent patterns

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Re: Zimbabwe V Ireland 4th T20I [Match Thread]

Post by slcricfan1 »

zimbos_05 wrote:
Fri Sep 03, 2021 9:50 pm
slcricfan1 wrote:
Fri Sep 03, 2021 7:24 am

its a long process but fair enough. Agree to disagree
slcricfan1 wrote:
Fri Sep 03, 2021 7:24 am

its a long process but fair enough. Agree to disagree
Ok, I'm happy to discuss this. I've looked at the last three (including this one) T20 series Zim are played. These were against Pakistan, Bangladesh, and Ireland. I've selected the 4 batters under consideration. These are the runs that they have scored in each match of the series.

vs PAK

Madhevere: 14, 16, 59 - 29.6 / 127.14
Marumani: 0, 13, 35 - 16 / 104
Myers: DNP, DNP, DNP
Shumba: DNP, DNP, DNP

vs BAN

Madhevere: 23, 73, 54 - 50 / 129.31
Marumani: 7, 3, 27 - 12.3 / 115.62
Myers: 35, 26, 23 - 28 / 139.06
Shumba: DNP, DNP, DNP

vs IRE

Madhevere: 1, 21, 13, 6 - 10.25 / 105
Marumani: 1, 11, 14, 4 - 7.5 / 73.17
Myers: 10, 1, 14, 4 - 7.25 / 100
Shumba: 7, 46, 6, 6 - 16.25 / 100

The only guy who can really say he has done decently is Wesley. The rest have struggled to get any sort of decent runs. Myers could be argued that he had an ok series against Bangladesh, but his drop in the Ireland series suggests he is not quite there. In fact, they have all dropped in the Ireland series and that suggests none of them are up to the standard we want them to be at, or like to think that they are. I also don't like SR too much as it doesn't tell the full picture. Marumani has two SRs over 100, but probably 1 decent contribution out of 10 innings. Even scoring a 4 off 1 ball gives you an amazing SR, but you've not really contributed too much to the runs.

I'm not advocating we do away with these guys. I'm advocating a different approach to their development. Not one that throws them in at the deep end, asks them to swim, and when they don't, we fill the pool with more water and ask them to try harder. We all know that the big 4 will have to retire at some point, but they are not in horrible form. So the best thing to do is to balance that youth and experience, and to have a better structure for developing these younger guys.

If they are coming out and making the same mistakes over and over again, then the coaching and development structure is not working. I mentioned how Wes got out playing a cross batted shot with no foot movement in one of the matches, and some said he does that often. So he clearly has not learnt. Constantly putting players in the middle in international matches hoping they figure it out is a fool hardy approach that will not lead to the desired results, but rather a constant level of mediocrity that saw the likes of Sibanda, Hammy, Matsi all achieve.

I get the idea that things take time too, but not like this. If something isn't working, pull the player back. Work on what needs to be and bring him back in. All the big sides do that. Some may persist, but when they do, it's because there is a proven track record that shows it is a blip. In our case, these are not blips. These are consistent patterns
Thats fair enough. Personally, I think in addition to some deficiencies in both temperament and technique, there`s also inexperience. When guys play in Europe for the first time, they generally do tend to fail. You see it especially with the south asian teams. But yeah retract my original statements and I think there should be 2 of the younger guys each game. Wes has done well btw imo, not just decently. I genuinely cannot think of another 20 year old international cricketer who has scored 2 70+ scores. His bowling is also pretty good. But the rest yeah agreed. I just don't want these guys thrown back into that domestic setup.

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zimbos_05
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Re: Zimbabwe V Ireland 4th T20I [Match Thread]

Post by zimbos_05 »

slcricfan1 wrote:
Sat Sep 04, 2021 3:22 am

Thats fair enough. Personally, I think in addition to some deficiencies in both temperament and technique, there`s also inexperience. When guys play in Europe for the first time, they generally do tend to fail. You see it especially with the south asian teams. But yeah retract my original statements and I think there should be 2 of the younger guys each game. Wes has done well btw imo, not just decently. I genuinely cannot think of another 20 year old international cricketer who has scored 2 70+ scores. His bowling is also pretty good. But the rest yeah agreed. I just don't want these guys thrown back into that domestic setup.
I agree. I'm not saying we let them rot in the domestic setup, but we need a better structure than what we have. Hopefully we can fix the domestic scene too so that we can look at the domestic set up as good enough for development. But these kids won't develop if the domestic is not good enough, and we throw them into international, because the other international players will not wait for them or be nice. They will go in hard.

Surely you mean, another 20 year old in Zim to score 2 70+ scores, not from any nation? And also only mean T20s?

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Re: Zimbabwe V Ireland 4th T20I [Match Thread]

Post by slcricfan1 »

zimbos_05 wrote:
Sat Sep 04, 2021 3:43 am
slcricfan1 wrote:
Sat Sep 04, 2021 3:22 am

Thats fair enough. Personally, I think in addition to some deficiencies in both temperament and technique, there`s also inexperience. When guys play in Europe for the first time, they generally do tend to fail. You see it especially with the south asian teams. But yeah retract my original statements and I think there should be 2 of the younger guys each game. Wes has done well btw imo, not just decently. I genuinely cannot think of another 20 year old international cricketer who has scored 2 70+ scores. His bowling is also pretty good. But the rest yeah agreed. I just don't want these guys thrown back into that domestic setup.
I agree. I'm not saying we let them rot in the domestic setup, but we need a better structure than what we have. Hopefully we can fix the domestic scene too so that we can look at the domestic set up as good enough for development. But these kids won't develop if the domestic is not good enough, and we throw them into international, because the other international players will not wait for them or be nice. They will go in hard.

Surely you mean, another 20 year old in Zim to score 2 70+ scores, not from any nation? And also only mean T20s?
na i mean any nation lol and yeah t20. Besides maybe the Afg guys

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zimbos_05
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Re: Zimbabwe V Ireland 4th T20I [Match Thread]

Post by zimbos_05 »

slcricfan1 wrote:
Sat Sep 04, 2021 4:11 am


na i mean any nation lol and yeah t20. Besides maybe the Afg guys
Well, my research isn't bringing up much other than non full member nations, so technically not true. But if only full members, then perhaps. In saying that, I am more interested in progression.

slcricfan1
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Re: Zimbabwe V Ireland 4th T20I [Match Thread]

Post by slcricfan1 »

zimbos_05 wrote:
Sat Sep 04, 2021 4:44 am
slcricfan1 wrote:
Sat Sep 04, 2021 4:11 am


na i mean any nation lol and yeah t20. Besides maybe the Afg guys
Well, my research isn't bringing up much other than non full member nations, so technically not true. But if only full members, then perhaps. In saying that, I am more interested in progression.
yeah ofc lmao, prolly some dude from croatia or sth but yeah what I mean is madhevere is seriously talented. Much more talented imo than most guys think.

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Re: Zimbabwe V Ireland 4th T20I [Match Thread]

Post by sloandog »

Good reading those posts

secretzimbo
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Re: Zimbabwe V Ireland 4th T20I [Match Thread]

Post by secretzimbo »

zimbos_05 wrote:
Sat Sep 04, 2021 3:43 am
slcricfan1 wrote:
Sat Sep 04, 2021 3:22 am

Thats fair enough. Personally, I think in addition to some deficiencies in both temperament and technique, there`s also inexperience. When guys play in Europe for the first time, they generally do tend to fail. You see it especially with the south asian teams. But yeah retract my original statements and I think there should be 2 of the younger guys each game. Wes has done well btw imo, not just decently. I genuinely cannot think of another 20 year old international cricketer who has scored 2 70+ scores. His bowling is also pretty good. But the rest yeah agreed. I just don't want these guys thrown back into that domestic setup.
I agree. I'm not saying we let them rot in the domestic setup, but we need a better structure than what we have. Hopefully we can fix the domestic scene too so that we can look at the domestic set up as good enough for development. But these kids won't develop if the domestic is not good enough, and we throw them into international, because the other international players will not wait for them or be nice. They will go in hard.

Surely you mean, another 20 year old in Zim to score 2 70+ scores, not from any nation? And also only mean T20s?
Yeah, I think most of us agree - which makes it even more baffling that the coach seemingly does not. As far as I'm aware there is no selector-on-tour with the squad this time so Rajput in theory should have control of choosing the XI from the squad. Even if he doesn't have that permission, well, he should grow a pair.

I think it's really good that all 4 of the youngsters are in the travelling squad. The alternatives would be the likes of Chari, Chamu etc, or people like Kasuza or Kaia who also probably aren't good enough. I'm glad they are in the squad and getting experience of travelling and different conditions and being around the setup. I even don't mind them all playing the first match of the tour. I mean, these T20 matches are relatively inconsequential so fair enough, try something different and put the kids in for the first game.

But by the second, third, definitely fourth game - it should be really really apparent that they are out of form, struggling and detrimental to the teams results. Good coaching, good management, good administration, good planning - would all lead to the senior players being recalled up at some point. It's absolutely crazy that Taylor has been sitting in the pavilion and Williams & Raza have been lounging around the team hotel all week.

Keep the youngsters in the squad, give them *some* chances, but make them work for it and let them know that we have expectations and they don't have an automatic right to play.


I can't watch the game today, which might be a good omen. The other match in this series that I didn't watch, we won! Hopefully we see Taylor in the side and the boys finish the series well.

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