Prematurely writing-off the new generation

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ZIMDOGGY
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Re: Prematurely writing-off the new generation

Post by ZIMDOGGY »

My personal opinion is similar to a few others.

They have some talent, but the talent is being way overestimated.
Just a few sibanda/just above types coming in at once, which is better than whats been dished up the last ten years, but we heed to temper expectation.

They may not hit fab 4 level, but may come clodse, which is still ok if we can find the true fab 4 replacements.

The one im struggling not to write off is Kamunhukamwe.
I dont think he has it. Depth only.

ZC jut have to approach their top 7 as
4x fab 4
3x younger players.
+ Regis

1 Wes
2 Regis
3 Erv
4 BT
5 Willo
6 Myers
7 Raza
8 Burl

Works for me.
Let shumba and marumani fight their way in.

And for the love of God piss off Maruma/prince/Chamu for good.
if you are over 30 and arent named Regis, Brendan, Craig, Sean or Sikandar I dont want to know you. We have enough old heads.
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secretzimbo
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Re: Prematurely writing-off the new generation

Post by secretzimbo »

^ Will happily write off Kamunhukamwe mate.


People I am writing off; Chamu, Chari, Maruma, Mutumbami, Masvaure, Kasuza, R Kaia, Kamunhukamwe.

Musakanda is one who is unfortunately getting very close to falling into that category too.



I think the 'new 4' at this stage are all showing much more promise and potential to better than any of those guys above. Whether they reach the heights of the big 4 relies on coaching, management and administration I reckon. We can all hope/pray/presume that the next 15 years will be smoother than the previous in terms of ZC stability. Hopefully with the right coaches as well, they can push on and achieve good careers.

As we've said in other threads though, we need a few guys at least as good as them in every batch of U19's, every couple of years. Thats how you build a quality team, squad and domestic setup with competition for places and high expectations.

Kriterion_BD
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Re: Prematurely writing-off the new generation

Post by Kriterion_BD »

eugene wrote:
Mon Sep 06, 2021 2:58 am
I don't deny the talent of the current generation, but these young guys aren't going to reach their full potential in current Zimbabwe setup - they simply won't play enough cricket. Playing 5 or 6 domestic matches per year and maybe 10-15 international games is a poor recipe for success, particularly when you consider how weak the domestic setup is. Any young Zimbabwean cricketer essentially hs to learn on the job.
ZC have arranged a lot of cricket since the 2015 World Cup. In fact between 15 and 19 World Cups I think Zimbabwe played the 3rd most ODIs of any team.

Nowadays, with the Super League in place, all teams will play roughly the same number of ODIs (12 per year on average, COVID pending), with probably a lot of ad hoc series arranged in the final year before a world cup. So ZIM can be expected to play nearly the same number of ODIs as India...the difference might be India playing 80% of their games vs England, Australia, NZ, and SA and ZIM might be playing more against BD, AFG, SL, PAK, IRE and WI. But the same will hold true of Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Afghanistan and West Indies too.
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Kriterion_BD
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Re: Prematurely writing-off the new generation

Post by Kriterion_BD »

secretzimbo wrote:
Mon Sep 06, 2021 1:37 pm
^ Will happily write off Kamunhukamwe mate.


People I am writing off; Chamu, Chari, Maruma, Mutumbami, Masvaure, Kasuza, R Kaia, Kamunhukamwe.

Musakanda is one who is unfortunately getting very close to falling into that category too.



I think the 'new 4' at this stage are all showing much more promise and potential to better than any of those guys above. Whether they reach the heights of the big 4 relies on coaching, management and administration I reckon. We can all hope/pray/presume that the next 15 years will be smoother than the previous in terms of ZC stability. Hopefully with the right coaches as well, they can push on and achieve good careers.

As we've said in other threads though, we need a few guys at least as good as them in every batch of U19's, every couple of years. Thats how you build a quality team, squad and domestic setup with competition for places and high expectations.
Just remember less than 6 months ago Kaia was being hyped on the forums when he made his debut vs Pakistan. After facing the bowling might of Shaheen, Hasan, and Taskin he's being "written off". What happens when a Tadiwanashe Marumani (yes my favorite example lol) goes from making single digit scores vs Fahim Ashraf, Saifuddin, and McCarthy to facing Starc or Boult or Bumrah? At this point, it would be impressive if he can score as many runs in one innings as there are letters in his name. At 19, he has time on his hands, but he has so much to improve that I think he's too old to fix enough of holes in his game to forge a decent career. By decent I mean averaging 30 in ODIs and 22-25 in T20Is.

I have to say I totally agree with Zimdoggy and zimbos_05 here.

I do think Myers and Madhevere can rival any two of the Big 4 batting wise. And Shumba if he works on his technique can match a Chakabva. If Shumba and Wes work on their bowling they can maybe match the effectiveness of Williams and Raza at their bowling peaks.

But even matching the Big 4 means Zimbabwe stay put right where they are at now - ranked 13th or so in ODIs (possibly lower if the Associates like Nepal, USA, Scotland keep gaining ground) and 10-11th in T20Is. All the Big 4 have managed so far is one T20 world cup win vs Australia, a Test win vs Pakistan, and couple Test wins vs Bangladesh and a couple draws vs WI and SL, and a couple ODI series wins vs BD as well. The bar isn't that high in terms of results for the Young 4 to pass the Big 4.
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ZIMDOGGY
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Re: Prematurely writing-off the new generation

Post by ZIMDOGGY »

Kriterion_BD wrote:
Mon Sep 06, 2021 9:57 pm
secretzimbo wrote:
Mon Sep 06, 2021 1:37 pm
^ Will happily write off Kamunhukamwe mate.


People I am writing off; Chamu, Chari, Maruma, Mutumbami, Masvaure, Kasuza, R Kaia, Kamunhukamwe.

Musakanda is one who is unfortunately getting very close to falling into that category too.



I think the 'new 4' at this stage are all showing much more promise and potential to better than any of those guys above. Whether they reach the heights of the big 4 relies on coaching, management and administration I reckon. We can all hope/pray/presume that the next 15 years will be smoother than the previous in terms of ZC stability. Hopefully with the right coaches as well, they can push on and achieve good careers.

As we've said in other threads though, we need a few guys at least as good as them in every batch of U19's, every couple of years. Thats how you build a quality team, squad and domestic setup with competition for places and high expectations.
Just remember less than 6 months ago Kaia was being hyped on the forums when he made his debut vs Pakistan. After facing the bowling might of Shaheen, Hasan, and Taskin he's being "written off". What happens when a Tadiwanashe Marumani (yes my favorite example lol) goes from making single digit scores vs Fahim Ashraf, Saifuddin, and McCarthy to facing Starc or Boult or Bumrah? At this point, it would be impressive if he can score as many runs in one innings as there are letters in his name. At 19, he has time on his hands, but he has so much to improve that I think he's too old to fix enough of holes in his game to forge a decent career. By decent I mean averaging 30 in ODIs and 22-25 in T20Is.

I have to say I totally agree with Zimdoggy and zimbos_05 here.

I do think Myers and Madhevere can rival any two of the Big 4 batting wise. And Shumba if he works on his technique can match a Chakabva. If Shumba and Wes work on their bowling they can maybe match the effectiveness of Williams and Raza at their bowling peaks.

But even matching the Big 4 means Zimbabwe stay put right where they are at now - ranked 13th or so in ODIs (possibly lower if the Associates like Nepal, USA, Scotland keep gaining ground) and 10-11th in T20Is. All the Big 4 have managed so far is one T20 world cup win vs Australia, a Test win vs Pakistan, and couple Test wins vs Bangladesh and a couple draws vs WI and SL, and a couple ODI series wins vs BD as well. The bar isn't that high in terms of results for the Young 4 to pass the Big 4.
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KNOWN AS: Gus Mackay

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Artist.
Player.

**
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secretzimbo
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Re: Prematurely writing-off the new generation

Post by secretzimbo »

Kriterion_BD wrote:
Mon Sep 06, 2021 9:57 pm
Just remember less than 6 months ago Kaia was being hyped on the forums when he made his debut vs Pakistan. After facing the bowling might of Shaheen, Hasan, and Taskin he's being "written off". What happens when a Tadiwanashe Marumani (yes my favorite example lol) goes from making single digit scores vs Fahim Ashraf, Saifuddin, and McCarthy to facing Starc or Boult or Bumrah? At this point, it would be impressive if he can score as many runs in one innings as there are letters in his name. At 19, he has time on his hands, but he has so much to improve that I think he's too old to fix enough of holes in his game to forge a decent career. By decent I mean averaging 30 in ODIs and 22-25 in T20Is.

I have to say I totally agree with Zimdoggy and zimbos_05 here.

I do think Myers and Madhevere can rival any two of the Big 4 batting wise. And Shumba if he works on his technique can match a Chakabva. If Shumba and Wes work on their bowling they can maybe match the effectiveness of Williams and Raza at their bowling peaks.

But even matching the Big 4 means Zimbabwe stay put right where they are at now - ranked 13th or so in ODIs (possibly lower if the Associates like Nepal, USA, Scotland keep gaining ground) and 10-11th in T20Is. All the Big 4 have managed so far is one T20 world cup win vs Australia, a Test win vs Pakistan, and couple Test wins vs Bangladesh and a couple draws vs WI and SL, and a couple ODI series wins vs BD as well. The bar isn't that high in terms of results for the Young 4 to pass the Big 4.
Kaia? Nah, for over 10 years he was a very average cricketer not really considered anywhere near the national team. He had 1 really good domestic season so he was worth the punt to see if he could continue the form and we were all hopeful. He turned out to be rubbish and it's not really a surprise. I don't think he was being 'hyped up'. I'm writing him off based on over 10 years of mediocrity in the Logan Cup btw - not just because he was shit against Bangladesh. Also his bowling action has been questioned by everyone in Zimbabwe for many years so that was always a fear as well. No one was hyping him up. People were just impressed by his sudden form and being hopeful that he could perform in the absence of our injured senior players this year. Honestly I rate his brother higher in hindsight.

I know you really hate Marumani in every thread so I'm just going to put on the record once again that I think he has as much talent as any of the others. Not based on recent performances but physically seeing him play a number of times over the years in school and junior cricket. He's been talked about locally for a long time, Ask people in Zim who have seen Marumani over the years or people that have played with/against/coached him and they'll tell you the same. Fair enough he's out of form and should definitely be dropped at the moment. But you heard it here; if he's managed and coached properly he can be the best T20 batsmen we've had in that format. Watched him for the first time when he was an 11-year old at a quality U13 comp at Glenview and I don't think I've ever seen more impressive performances from a kid that young. I think he scored about 120 not out in a 10-over match and got several other big scores throughout the weekend.


Also I totally agree with your last paragraph. Which is why I made the point that we need to produce players like that in every single U19 batch (and retain them). No system can sustain itself with 4 quality players. The big 4 needs to be the big 10 or 15 or 20. Thats the only way we get genuine competition for places, quality domestic cricket and a winning environment at all levels. And, of course, we actually do produce players in every batch and have done for along time. The challenge is retaining them; happily we seemingly have a relatively higher chance of doing so when they are black so thats good.

The Big 4 have also played and endured through fifteen years of successive administrative/political disasters, to their detriment. We can all hope these new four have a smoother time of it.

Kriterion_BD
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Re: Prematurely writing-off the new generation

Post by Kriterion_BD »

What you told me about Marumani as an 11 year old actually makes me even more confident about my assessment of him so far.

If someone told me that they know an 11 or 12 year kid who is head and shoulders above all the other kids his age...I would say "there's a 95% we are having a completely different conversation in 7 or 8 years time." The reason is because kids develop at different rates that early on. Maybe Marumani was an awesome 11 year old, but its equally possible he was bullying Myers and Madhevere at that age and now Myers and Madhevere have not only caught up to him, but surpassed him as well. You just can't predict much of anything at such an early age.

If a 12 year old kid is the fastest bowler in his school, there is no guarantee he will still be the quickest 8 years later when they are all young men. Unless he's freakishly fast.
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eugene
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Re: Prematurely writing-off the new generation

Post by eugene »

Kriterion_BD wrote:
Mon Sep 06, 2021 9:48 pm
eugene wrote:
Mon Sep 06, 2021 2:58 am
I don't deny the talent of the current generation, but these young guys aren't going to reach their full potential in current Zimbabwe setup - they simply won't play enough cricket. Playing 5 or 6 domestic matches per year and maybe 10-15 international games is a poor recipe for success, particularly when you consider how weak the domestic setup is. Any young Zimbabwean cricketer essentially hs to learn on the job.
ZC have arranged a lot of cricket since the 2015 World Cup. In fact between 15 and 19 World Cups I think Zimbabwe played the 3rd most ODIs of any team.

Nowadays, with the Super League in place, all teams will play roughly the same number of ODIs (12 per year on average, COVID pending), with probably a lot of ad hoc series arranged in the final year before a world cup. So ZIM can be expected to play nearly the same number of ODIs as India...the difference might be India playing 80% of their games vs England, Australia, NZ, and SA and ZIM might be playing more against BD, AFG, SL, PAK, IRE and WI. But the same will hold true of Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Afghanistan and West Indies too.
The lack of domestic cricket is a big problem though. These young guys need to cutting their teeth against seasoned domestic veterans, not learning on the job in Bangladesh.
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slcricfan1
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Re: Prematurely writing-off the new generation

Post by slcricfan1 »

ZIMDOGGY wrote:
Mon Sep 06, 2021 1:21 pm
My personal opinion is similar to a few others.

They have some talent, but the talent is being way overestimated.
Just a few sibanda/just above types coming in at once, which is better than whats been dished up the last ten years, but we heed to temper expectation.

They may not hit fab 4 level, but may come clodse, which is still ok if we can find the true fab 4 replacements.

The one im struggling not to write off is Kamunhukamwe.
I dont think he has it. Depth only.

ZC jut have to approach their top 7 as
4x fab 4
3x younger players.
+ Regis

1 Wes
2 Regis
3 Erv
4 BT
5 Willo
6 Myers
7 Raza
8 Burl

Works for me.
Let shumba and marumani fight their way in.

And for the love of God piss off Maruma/prince/Chamu for good.
if you are over 30 and arent named Regis, Brendan, Craig, Sean or Sikandar I dont want to know you. We have enough old heads.
what makes me so optimistic about these guys was I was thinking that cricket would die with the the exodus of the white population. These 4 and the shots they have played along with guys like Muzarabani, Ngarava and Jongwe show me that in the next generation or two, we will move up or at least we wont move down. Forgive any ignorance I might show. Im just an outside observer

Kriterion_BD
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Re: Prematurely writing-off the new generation

Post by Kriterion_BD »

eugene wrote:
Tue Sep 07, 2021 2:20 am
The lack of domestic cricket is a big problem though. These young guys need to cutting their teeth against seasoned domestic veterans, not learning on the job in Bangladesh.
I disagree. If the standard of the domestic competitions isn't high enough, it doesn't do young players any good. Cutting their teeth against Shakib or Taijul on Dhaka dustbowl or against Rashid and Mujeeb in Sharjah will equip them better than facing Ndovolu or Nyumbu IMO. They might struggle at first, but the truly good players will adjust. Progression is key, as has already been stated on this very thread.

If they can get 5-6 Logan Cup matches per year, and another 10-12 Pro50 games, thats decent. Obviously to play more games, you need more teams, otherwise its just playing the same opposition ever week. Its been mentioned that there's really only enough talent to make about 3 proper first class sides. You would need 5 teams to be able to play a large volume of cricket. And don't forget A team cricket. If the ZC can arrange A team tours, that would also be better than domestic cricket.

I've always been an advocate of "rushing" young players into the national side for Bangladesh. Thats mostly because our domestic cricket has decent volume (aprox 12 first class matches per season, 15 List A, and 12-15 T20) but very poor quality compared to international cricket. Since COVID - Bangladesh has played ZERO first class cricket, and just one week of List A fixtures - the rest has just been T20 cricket with the BPL still indefinitely postponed. The BCB also doesn't care to arrange A team cricket. The one thing they are serious about is the U19 team and thats probably why the U19 has done well the past decade plus. If you recall, Tamim-Shakib-Mushfiq cut their teeth mostly by playing Zimbabwe from 2006-2013.
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