Post Big 4 era

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ZIMFAN
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Re: Post Big 4 era

Post by ZIMFAN »

Pleased you're back googly. The board has missed you.

Xlife
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Re: Post Big 4 era

Post by Xlife »

There are some overly pessimistic views on this thread. Probably the same people that have been predicting doom and gloom for Zimbabwe Cricket since 2004, yet it's still here...

The youngsters are really young (19/20) and already are putting in performances on a similar level to the "big 4" (who are over 35). Where do you think these guys will be in 5, 10, 15 years time with experience and good coaching? They can potentially be even better than the current mediocre lot and isn't that what we all want?

Googly
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Re: Post Big 4 era

Post by Googly »

Again aimed at me 🤣
Pessimism depends on what your aspirations are. Yes we're still playing a few games a year and being soundly thrashed. If that's the level of expectation then I'm guilty as charged.

secretzimbo
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Re: Post Big 4 era

Post by secretzimbo »

Xlife wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 12:56 pm
There are some overly pessimistic views on this thread. Probably the same people that have been predicting doom and gloom for Zimbabwe Cricket since 2004, yet it's still here...

The youngsters are really young (19/20) and already are putting in performances on a similar level to the "big 4" (who are over 35).
Are they?

Career Averages:
Madhevere ODI 30. T20I 22.50
Marumani ODI 7. T20I 10.72
Myers ODI 23.25 T20I 17.37
Shumba ODI 0 T20I 28.60

Taylor ODI 35.55 T20I 23.94
Ervine ODI 32.58 T20I 24.89
Williams ODI 34.73 T20I 22.62
Raza ODI 34.60 T20I 13.43 (this is so much lower than I realised)

I'm not saying the youngsters are realistically going to do their numbers at this stage of their careers of course! But statements like 'performing on a similar level' top the big 4 are just incorrect.
Where do you think these guys will be in 5, 10, 15 years time with experience and good coaching? They can potentially be even better than the current mediocre lot and isn't that what we all want?
No one is saying the potential isn't there.

But quite obviously if you know even a single thing about Zimbabwe the cricket setup or Zimbabwe the country, then obviously you know the chances of them getting 'good coaching' - let alone all the other stuff required - is extremely slim.

Googly
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Re: Post Big 4 era

Post by Googly »

So you're saying we're giving these youngsters 5-15 years to come right? They will be over the moon with that information. We definitely don't have that long.
One can gain huge experience at averaging less than 20 and it won't count for much. People are pointing fingers at Matsi, but maybe he gives them solid coaching and advice? Only the senior guys would be able to shed any light on how he is as a coach. Whatever his personal record was as a player shouldn't count for much, but it does.

Googly
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Re: Post Big 4 era

Post by Googly »

Maybe, just maybe (hope I'm wrong!), they're not good enough and it wouldn't matter who coached them?
Being sharp at u19 or at zim domestic level doesn't mean a thing. Only a few guys on the planet are up for international batting.

Xlife
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Re: Post Big 4 era

Post by Xlife »

secretzimbo wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 1:19 pm
Xlife wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 12:56 pm
There are some overly pessimistic views on this thread. Probably the same people that have been predicting doom and gloom for Zimbabwe Cricket since 2004, yet it's still here...

The youngsters are really young (19/20) and already are putting in performances on a similar level to the "big 4" (who are over 35).
Are they?

Career Averages:
Madhevere ODI 30. T20I 22.50
Marumani ODI 7. T20I 10.72
Myers ODI 23.25 T20I 17.37
Shumba ODI 0 T20I 28.60

Taylor ODI 35.55 T20I 23.94
Ervine ODI 32.58 T20I 24.89
Williams ODI 34.73 T20I 22.62
Raza ODI 34.60 T20I 13.43 (this is so much lower than I realised)

I'm not saying the youngsters are realistically going to do their numbers at this stage of their careers of course! But statements like 'performing on a similar level' top the big 4 are just incorrect.
Where do you think these guys will be in 5, 10, 15 years time with experience and good coaching? They can potentially be even better than the current mediocre lot and isn't that what we all want?
No one is saying the potential isn't there.

But quite obviously if you know even a single thing about Zimbabwe the cricket setup or Zimbabwe the country, then obviously you know the chances of them getting 'good coaching' - let alone all the other stuff required - is extremely slim.
I'm saying individual performances are comparable, it's still way to early to compare averages/stats. The youngsters may very well have superior stats by the time they are 35. What were the "big 4s" when they were 20 years old?

Googly
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Re: Post Big 4 era

Post by Googly »

I'm not sure we're going to ever play any big sides again on a regular basis, so the stats will be hard to compare. Having said that, the sides we will play more regularly have become pretty damned good.

Kriterion_BD
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Re: Post Big 4 era

Post by Kriterion_BD »

Xlife wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 12:56 pm
There are some overly pessimistic views on this thread. Probably the same people that have been predicting doom and gloom for Zimbabwe Cricket since 2004, yet it's still here...

The youngsters are really young (19/20) and already are putting in performances on a similar level to the "big 4" (who are over 35). Where do you think these guys will be in 5, 10, 15 years time with experience and good coaching? They can potentially be even better than the current mediocre lot and isn't that what we all want?
Googly wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 1:24 pm
Maybe, just maybe (hope I'm wrong!), they're not good enough and it wouldn't matter who coached them?
Being sharp at u19 or at zim domestic level doesn't mean a thing. Only a few guys on the planet are up for international batting.
I think a lot is talked up about coaches. For one thing, a really good coach is out there (whether he would accept the job, IDK) - Jaimie Siddons. More than any other coach, he's the man that transformed Bangladesh from a minnow to a top team. Whatmore played a smaller role before him, and Hathurasinghe may have played a role in Test cricket after. Siddons hasn't had any high profile coaching jobs since leaving Bangladesh circa 2011. ZC could get him. Or at least get him as a full time batting coach. Again, not sure he would accept the job, but its always worth the try.

But I suspect googly may be right. ZC have had a million coaches, but none of the players have improved their games in the last 10-15 years, except the Big 4 - and I suspect they did it on their own.

Lets break down ODI batting averages (since ZIM play so few Tests, and T20s aren't real cricket IMO) into four quarters based on time not matches:

BRMT - 28.36, 34.37, 34.82, 35.55
SCW - 30.39, 29.38, 32.25, 34.73
CRE - 32.27, 35.10, 32.45, 32.58
SRB - 27.03, 31.03, 33.98, 34.60

Thats the Big 4's batting averages by quarter of their career. While it may not seem like a lot, BRMT upping his average to 35+ from 28 is in fact a big jump. Its a 25% increase in his average. Williams and Raza also had solid progression over the years, Williams a bit later in his career. Only Ervine basically stayed at the same level throughout, but an average of 32 is decent. I suspect though that the bulk of these runs were scored vs Ireland, Afghanistan, and the Associates, so it would be interesting to see how those numbers changed vs top 8 teams.

Did the top 9 averages and Taylor, Williams, and Raza experience slight dips in their overall career averages (all average 32-33), Ervine's drops the most down to 27. But Ervine is still a touch better than Hammy and Elton who average 25.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjtuZBykSzM (Noreaga - Blood Money Part 3)

Jayb
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Re: Post Big 4 era

Post by Jayb »

Xlife wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 12:56 pm
There are some overly pessimistic views on this thread. Probably the same people that have been predicting doom and gloom for Zimbabwe Cricket since 2004, yet it's still here...

The youngsters are really young (19/20) and already are putting in performances on a similar level to the "big 4" (who are over 35). Where do you think these guys will be in 5, 10, 15 years time with experience and good coaching? They can potentially be even better than the current mediocre lot and isn't that what we all want?
.
Last edited by Jayb on Mon Mar 07, 2022 11:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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