Post Big 4 era

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TapsC2
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Re: Post Big 4 era

Post by TapsC2 »

Your insight is always appreciated Googly.

Kriterion_BD
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Re: Post Big 4 era

Post by Kriterion_BD »

It's nearly impossible to be optimistic.

With the Big 4, world cup qualification was a moderate possibility, if still a Longshot.

Without, relegation to league 2 is a strong possibility.

Myers and Madhevere have some talent. But they will have to learn quickly and on the job. Pro50 and Logan Cup simply won't develop them to anywhere near international standard. They need A team cricket vs AFG, BD, SL, WI, SA and PAK level teams. Or international cricket vs Ireland, Scotland, Netherlands.

Ultimately, Zimbabwe will likely go the Kenya route into cricketing oblivion.
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jaybro
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Re: Post Big 4 era

Post by jaybro »

Despite my views that ZC should try and entice the likes of Welch, Byrom, Murray, Schadendorf etc back, I highly doubt they will, in fact I’m certain they won’t. It must have been driving the Chairman & his merry bunch of mates mad that the team has been so dependent on the Big 4 (which was the big 5 with Cremer) for so long, when clearly they want them out of the game, and the fact that the Raza, Willy & BT have made things difficult for them by undermining them.

They were obviously desperate to qualify for the 2019 CWC so they offered Streak what ever he wanted including big money for BT & KJ, the way in which that blew up in their faces and the sad state of affairs that followed, would have really been a sore point for ZC. The fact there’s been so many issues since then between the Big 4 and ZC can only have made this even worse.

Now that ZC can see light at the end of the tunnel in regards to the end of the playing careers of the Big 4, I’m not sure they’d take the chance of offering big contracts to entice white players back, who haven’t ever committed themselves to the system before. Obviously it seems wrong to ‘paint people with the same brush’ but I’d be pretty confident this is how ZC are thinking.

What I think will happen is that they’ll try and go with what’s available, as in the current guys in the system, then once it totally goes to shit they’ll sack the coach and start again. That’s the stupid thing from Rajput, he thinks he’s on-side with the board because he’s doing their dirty work, but what he’s too short sighted to see is that once the Big 4 are gone, there’s no one else to blame but him.

Every time the side fails, they blame the Big 4, which is fair enough to a point as they are the senior players so they are expected to perform. But ZC has done zero to ready themselves for life after the Big 4, so when it all comes tumbling down and Zimbabwe miss the next World Cup, they’ll be blaming Rajput and it’ll be his arse on the chopping block.

There’s a really big chance Zimbabwe will be relegated from the ODI championship or what ever it’s called. Ireland and Scotland are now moving on from being an associate style nation who rely on ex pat players, and now are bringing through lots of good young players, whilst the Netherlands are prospering from South Africa’s issues by picking up a lot of quality players with Dutch ancestry.

If Zimbabwe don’t come last in this version of the ODI championship, then they’ll definitely come last next time around, at that stage you’d think it’ll be panic stations at ZC because the spotlight will be on them once again, and the funding will decrease.
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TapsC2
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Re: Post Big 4 era

Post by TapsC2 »

December will determine whether we finish last or not. Netherlands and Afghanistan at home. Anything less than 30 points there then we are in trouble. Dusty Bulawayo wicket for the Dutch and a Harare greentop for Afghanistan.

The only other hope of 10 points from there is Sri Lanka. We not getting anything Australia and India.

Also if I read the relegation rules properly don't you only get relegated if you finish below an associate in the qualifiers? There is a reason why ZC always puts their hands up to host qualifiers. You don't want to have a relegation battle on an Irish wicket

slcricfan1
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Re: Post Big 4 era

Post by slcricfan1 »

TapsC2 wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 4:36 am
December will determine whether we finish last or not. Netherlands and Afghanistan at home. Anything less than 30 points there then we are in trouble. Dusty Bulawayo wicket for the Dutch and a Harare greentop for Afghanistan.

The only other hope of 10 points from there is Sri Lanka. We not getting anything Australia and India.

Also if I read the relegation rules properly don't you only get relegated if you finish below an associate in the qualifiers? There is a reason why ZC always puts their hands up to host qualifiers. You don't want to have a relegation battle on an Irish wicket
india and aus might second their second teams like indias last tour of sri lanka

TapsC2
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Re: Post Big 4 era

Post by TapsC2 »

I am not too concerned right now. Look our level isn't that high and honestly speaking a couple of imports will bring us back to that level.

I will be honest and say we will probably be around the ireland, Scotland, Netherlands level for the next 5 years. That level is not that hard to achieve. Afghanistan are in serious trouble, their future is in serious doubt. That is actually a very good thing for us because they were going the Bangladesh route. This will slow them down by maybe 5 years with bans and mass retirements because their players can easily make money in T20 leagues.

This means that only Bangladesh would have seriously improved over the last 20 years. Another thing is that we have 2 big teams in transition, SA and Sri Lanka. Their level is going to drop for a few years.

All Zim has to do is a win a couple of matches a year against the semi-big teams and compete against the bottom teams and they will be fine. We can forget about being a force for now.

Finally, the one thing I know about the people in the system is that they love their salaries and benefits. If that is at risk they will make a plan. I can already see it. Bring back a Zim legend to coach and a couple of imports from the county circuit and the world will give them a few years. They are willing to do the drastic to save the game so they keep making money.

There is now way they wanted the ICC to audit them or to pay all that money to Streak,BT and Jarvis. This bought them another 4 years until now. They did it to save their salaries and they will do it again

sam_ahm
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Re: Post Big 4 era

Post by sam_ahm »

Kriterion_BD wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 10:19 pm
It's nearly impossible to be optimistic.

With the Big 4, world cup qualification was a moderate possibility, if still a Longshot.

Without, relegation to league 2 is a strong possibility.

Myers and Madhevere have some talent. But they will have to learn quickly and on the job. Pro50 and Logan Cup simply won't develop them to anywhere near international standard. They need A team cricket vs AFG, BD, SL, WI, SA and PAK level teams. Or international cricket vs Ireland, Scotland, Netherlands.

Ultimately, Zimbabwe will likely go the Kenya route into cricketing oblivion.
Going the Kenya route probably not because Zimbabwe have the advantage of having test status and is a full member. So will have more money flowing in.

Also with T20 WC allowing 16 teams and to be expanded to 20 and ODI WC expanding to 14 teams from 2027 Zimbabwe will fancy their chances of qualification.

As for the current situation, I'm ruling out WC qualification for 2023, that looks a really long shot. I think they can avoid finishing 13th though, more so because Ireland lost 50 points against Afg and Net and another 15 from Zimbabwe, their remaining matches are tough ones and they are more likely to finish 13th than Zimbabwe who still have some easy fixtures, that too most of them at home.

As of now it looks like Oman will top WSL League 2, quite surprisingly ahead of Scotland. I have a feeling Oman might struggle to finish ahead of Ireland, Zimbabwe or Netherlands, whoever finishes 13th and hence the current 13 teams remain safe from relegation.

Kriterion_BD
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Re: Post Big 4 era

Post by Kriterion_BD »

sam_ahm wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 5:38 am
Going the Kenya route probably not because Zimbabwe have the advantage of having test status and is a full member. So will have more money flowing in.

Also with T20 WC allowing 16 teams and to be expanded to 20 and ODI WC expanding to 14 teams from 2027 Zimbabwe will fancy their chances of qualification.
Definitely agree. ZC have a very long rope there.
As for the current situation, I'm ruling out WC qualification for 2023, that looks a really long shot. I think they can avoid finishing 13th though, more so because Ireland lost 50 points against Afg and Net and another 15 from Zimbabwe, their remaining matches are tough ones and they are more likely to finish 13th than Zimbabwe who still have some easy fixtures, that too most of them at home.
Idk what the remaining fixtures are, but you may have a point. However, Ireland picked up 15 points vs SA - which to be fair they weren't expected to. 15 points vs ZIM is par. Ireland also have more washouts than any other country, an advantage for them against stronger opposition where they will pick up a lot of 5 pointers.

Perhaps most pertinent though is that I suspect the SL will have to go to % of points available because of so many series being cancelled for various reasons. England-BD series got cancelled, PAK-NZ is being played but no longer Super League, and PAK-AFG got cancelled. The ICC will have no choice but to switch the scoring system to make it fair, just like they did for the WTC.

The Netherlands and AFG series will be critical. On paper ZIM should beat NED 2-1, but lose to AFG by the same margin. That means 3-3 overall and 30 points. That gives ZIM 55 points, and Ireland are already at 50. If ZIM sweeps Netherlands thats 65 points, but again Ireland would only need 3 washouts to catch up. As Taps said, if ZIM get anything less than 30 points from those 6 games, its game over for this round.
As of now it looks like Oman will top WSL League 2, quite surprisingly ahead of Scotland. I have a feeling Oman might struggle to finish ahead of Ireland, Zimbabwe or Netherlands, whoever finishes 13th and hence the current 13 teams remain safe from relegation.
Yeah Oman are looking like kings in L2. I really hope the USA can finish in the top 4, but they are getting beaten every game even though they are competing for the most part.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjtuZBykSzM (Noreaga - Blood Money Part 3)

Googly
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Re: Post Big 4 era

Post by Googly »



I am not too concerned right now. Look our level isn't that high and honestly speaking a couple of imports will bring us back to that level.

I will be honest and say we will probably be around the ireland, Scotland, Netherlands level for the next 5 years. That level is not that hard to achieve. Afghanistan are in serious trouble, their future is in serious doubt. That is actually a very good thing for us because they were going the Bangladesh route. This will slow them down by maybe 5 years with bans and mass retirements because their players can easily make money in T20 leagues.
I disagree completely.
We've just been beaten by a country that experiences 3 days of sunshine a year. We've got one seamer that can occasionally trouble a decent batsman and part time spinners. We've got Ervine and Williams as experienced decent batters. ZC should be in full panic mode.
Would a series defeat to Scotland be whats required to cause a flutter of doubt? From what I've seen of Scotland it's on the cards. It's getting tougher and tougher to explain away loss after loss by the use of the word "meaningless" and "we've got a young squad." Of course they're going to say just that and they're not accountable to anybody so that's that, we just have to swallow it.
These young guys have thrown ZC a lifeline, not so much in terms of improving our national side, but by buying them time, as has Women's cricket. It's disingenuously transparent, but fortunately most people don't see the ruse.
I'll gladly eat my words if they come good, but I don't see it happening, the odd decent innings here and there, but no real consistency and no big scores. Again I'd like to reiterate I'm not knocking these lads, I think there's potential, but not in this current environment. They themselves probably don't know that, they're probably being treated quite well earning a few bucks, which for a youngster with no responsibilities is probably a damned fine feeling. We'll see how they feel on 2k a month with a wife and three kids in a few years. And they know one good innings buys them a year and cult-like status, that in itself is counter- productive to creating a tough cricketer. If you're earning 2k and your mates are earning 200 then you're a king.

I think there's an outside chance of them making a deal with Houghton. Unless he's got another coaching job lined up or he's just enough it's an option for both parties. Again it would be window dressing, he ultimately wont have a huge say in selection and he's not a magician. You can give guidance and coaching, but you can't make an international batsman out of someone who isn't, but he'd probably be the right guy to give it a try. I'm always a bit suspicious of people that take on coaching roles here because they know they have to dance to someone else's tune. Zim used to be a stepping stone for overseas coaches, it now has to be a retirement plan. Truth.

TapsC2
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Re: Post Big 4 era

Post by TapsC2 »

My prediction is that instead of having a big 4 we are going to have a team of 6 or 7 guys averaging between 25 and 30 like Hami. That's their most realistic objective for now and it can be enough to buy them time until at least the exapnded 2027 World Cup.

I think from the guys who are actually there Myers, Wes, Shumba, Burl and Tari can get to that Hami range. PJ too if he wants to come back. That will keep you competitive against the bottom sides

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