Northerns Vs Southerns (Sri Lanka Pre-Camp)

[Tinah09]

Jeez this is not an easy convo. I'm pointing out that he's a regular Two's player doing better than most of our national guys. He's a good player, not a great player. He's more organised in his innings and shot selection, because if you don't play like that in UK conditions you won't get into double figures very often. He's not miles ahead at all, but he's ahead of most. It's a game of millimeters, not miles.
No disrespect to Mutombodzi but he won't buy a run in County Firsts. He'd have to be good enough to learn his trade in Two's, meaning he'd have to bang some runs and impress in 3 outings in Second Team or he'd be back to club cricket. He'd have to get lucky and not face an angry First team seamer who's just been dropped as well. Who's coping with that pressure?

I never said every county batsman is better than our lads, but a large number are unfortunately. Its just a thumb suck but you'd probably find that the top 3 or 4 batters from most of the counties would make our national side. That's more than 50 people!! What we urgently need to do is to stop deluding ourselves that we are thereabouts because we have a lot of work to do here. You're only as good as your domestic system, with few exceptions. I'm sure we've had this post before, but which of our batsmen would make a County side in any format? Ervine and Williams maybe. A couple of others may get the nod as all-rounders, but as a pure batsman- eeish hardly anybody.

You've also misread Schardendorf based solely on his stats for that tournament and where he batted. He's at the very least on a par with those guys. I'm assuming you've never seen him play? He's a proper cricketer, and I will guarantee that he will look even more polished now. He's been in a professional 24/7 environment for a while. If you'd lined all those guys in order of ability back then it would probably be Myers and Schardendorf, then Madhevere and Bawa. They're all decent players, I'm just saying a coach with an eye would probably rate them in that order. Our lot here have had the "benefit" of some stop start international and domestic cricket. You're only really benefiting if you're playing regularly and doing reasonably well. It would take a special player to make continuous low scores in international cricket and learn anything.

You've got an issue with English cricket for whatever reason. You're basing your opinion on this disastrous series. Every decent team is hard to beat at home and England have also imploded, but they're unbelievably strong in the other formats and extremely difficult to beat in home conditions. Most cricket worldwide has improved, with more money, more people playing, more training, more games and more formats how can it not? Perhaps English test cricket has suffered of late, but it might just be that other teams have improved more in that format over a given period. I'm not a fan of the English for reasons outside of cricket, but you have to give some credit where its due, they have a solid system that produces very good players. If a similar system was in place here (theoretical because they have a lot more money) we'd be doing great, despite our miniscule pool.

obviously Zimbabwe Cricket isn't as good as England, for obvious reasons. But to elevate them to the level you do is downright dishonest. I think if there was a Champions League-like completion in which the top franchises/provincial teams in Australia, England, India, etc, that will at least provide an honest assessment as to how this supposedly superior county system is. For now, all we have are international games. So, if the current England team is the best XI players county cricket has to offer, then Im sorry to say, I don't buy the British cricketing superiority you are peddling. Only 2 players in the current England team (Root and Wood) can perhaps make it into the Australia or India first XI. They didn't have a disastrous series, they had a disastrous year, didn't they lose at home to India this season, have you looked at batting stats? Extras are the 3rd highest runscorer for England in 2020/1 season...the whole season, not just the Ashes. Thats cream of county cricket!! and we are just supposed to revere them just because they are British?

Theres no way Shadendorf was better that Madhevere, Shumba and Marumani in the last U19 World Cup. You are obviously entitled to your own opinions but you are not entitled to your own facts. The facts are in the numbers, that is the most reliable matriculates that can be subjected to rigorous statisical analysis, the qualitative stuff, e.g. a cricketers posture, how they hold the bat etc are qualitative measures which are heavily subject to bias. The truth is Shadendorf made it to county cricket on the back of his British passport, not his talent, Isnt that quite obvious?? The only thing that made him "better" than his teammates was his British heritage, not his actual performance on the pitch, the number prove it.

[jaybro]

I think it’s pretty clear that county cricket isn’t what it used to be, you only have to see the rabble their test team is to come to that outcome

[Kriterion_BD]

I think it’s pretty clear that county cricket isn’t what it used to be, you only have to see the rabble their test team is to come to that outcome

I think its just a cycle and England are in a low point in it. Their LOI sides are still world class meaning the counties are doing that OK. I think its a matter of not being able to excel in both white and red balls simaltaneously. Which is still strange given how very many players England have. 18 counties times 20 players per team is nearly 400 professional players.

[Tinah09]

Jeez this is not an easy convo. I'm pointing out that he's a regular Two's player doing better than most of our national guys. He's a good player, not a great player. He's more organised in his innings and shot selection, because if you don't play like that in UK conditions you won't get into double figures very often. He's not miles ahead at all, but he's ahead of most. It's a game of millimeters, not miles.
No disrespect to Mutombodzi but he won't buy a run in County Firsts. He'd have to be good enough to learn his trade in Two's, meaning he'd have to bang some runs and impress in 3 outings in Second Team or he'd be back to club cricket. He'd have to get lucky and not face an angry First team seamer who's just been dropped as well. Who's coping with that pressure?

I never said every county batsman is better than our lads, but a large number are unfortunately. Its just a thumb suck but you'd probably find that the top 3 or 4 batters from most of the counties would make our national side. That's more than 50 people!! What we urgently need to do is to stop deluding ourselves that we are thereabouts because we have a lot of work to do here. You're only as good as your domestic system, with few exceptions. I'm sure we've had this post before, but which of our batsmen would make a County side in any format? Ervine and Williams maybe. A couple of others may get the nod as all-rounders, but as a pure batsman- eeish hardly anybody.

You've also misread Schardendorf based solely on his stats for that tournament and where he batted. He's at the very least on a par with those guys. I'm assuming you've never seen him play? He's a proper cricketer, and I will guarantee that he will look even more polished now. He's been in a professional 24/7 environment for a while. If you'd lined all those guys in order of ability back then it would probably be Myers and Schardendorf, then Madhevere and Bawa. They're all decent players, I'm just saying a coach with an eye would probably rate them in that order. Our lot here have had the "benefit" of some stop start international and domestic cricket. You're only really benefiting if you're playing regularly and doing reasonably well. It would take a special player to make continuous low scores in international cricket and learn anything.

You've got an issue with English cricket for whatever reason. You're basing your opinion on this disastrous series. Every decent team is hard to beat at home and England have also imploded, but they're unbelievably strong in the other formats and extremely difficult to beat in home conditions. Most cricket worldwide has improved, with more money, more people playing, more training, more games and more formats how can it not? Perhaps English test cricket has suffered of late, but it might just be that other teams have improved more in that format over a given period. I'm not a fan of the English for reasons outside of cricket, but you have to give some credit where its due, they have a solid system that produces very good players. If a similar system was in place here (theoretical because they have a lot more money) we'd be doing great, despite our miniscule pool.

Its quite funny that when fans or selectors want to elevate a clearly inferior player over his more talented counterparts, they come up with vague descriptions and terminology, "He's a proper cricketer", and his teammates are not? Vague , qualitative descriptions are always used as a justification when merit, hard numbers go against one's favourite. Back in the day inSA , there was a storm of controversy when Natal elevated Goolum Bodi over Kevin Peitersen. The selectors claimed it was because Bodi was a more disciplined batsmen, who stuck to the fundamentals and "was willing to learn", while Kevin Pietersen was to unorthodox, takes too many risks, improvises too much, needs discipline. Based on statistics, Kevin Pietersen was infinitely better than Bodi, but to meet quotas and get additional $$$ that came with fielding more black faces, Natal selectors literally lied, used bullshit qualitative justifications and SA lost Pietersen to England (read KP's autobiography for more details). This is exactly what you are doing here, making up facts to suit your narrative. This forum has a dedicated SA cricket section where there's nothing but whining and crying about SA's transformation/quota systems, do you know that, like you, these administrators also formulate ridiculous, contradictory excuses to justify what is at times unjustifiable. Vusi Sibanda had the arguably best batting technique in Zimbabwe, I was a big fan, but it will be dishonest to say he was the best batsmen in the team because "He's a proper cricketer", that honour belongs to Brendan Taylor despite his unorthodox style, poor footwork and unnecessary high risk style...why? because the stats say so

[Tinah09]

I think it’s pretty clear that county cricket isn’t what it used to be, you only have to see the rabble their test team is to come to that outcome

I think its just a cycle and England are in a low point in it. Their LOI sides are still world class meaning the counties are doing that OK. I think its a matter of not being able to excel in both white and red balls simaltaneously. Which is still strange given how very many players England have. 18 counties times 20 players per team is nearly 400 professional players.

Contrary to that, the Viv Richards West-Indies team, Greame Smith-South Africa team dominated both red and white ball cricket simultaneously and were top ranked in both simultaneous......conversely when they lost players to retirement etc, both nations declined in red and white ball cricket simultaneously.

[andrewn9]

It just makes me laugh when you say they're giving them hell but actually lose the match. It just sounds funny to me.

[ZIMDOGGY]

Jeez this is not an easy convo. I'm pointing out that he's a regular Two's player doing better than most of our national guys. He's a good player, not a great player. He's more organised in his innings and shot selection, because if you don't play like that in UK conditions you won't get into double figures very often. He's not miles ahead at all, but he's ahead of most. It's a game of millimeters, not miles.
No disrespect to Mutombodzi but he won't buy a run in County Firsts. He'd have to be good enough to learn his trade in Two's, meaning he'd have to bang some runs and impress in 3 outings in Second Team or he'd be back to club cricket. He'd have to get lucky and not face an angry First team seamer who's just been dropped as well. Who's coping with that pressure?

I never said every county batsman is better than our lads, but a large number are unfortunately. Its just a thumb suck but you'd probably find that the top 3 or 4 batters from most of the counties would make our national side. That's more than 50 people!! What we urgently need to do is to stop deluding ourselves that we are thereabouts because we have a lot of work to do here. You're only as good as your domestic system, with few exceptions. I'm sure we've had this post before, but which of our batsmen would make a County side in any format? Ervine and Williams maybe. A couple of others may get the nod as all-rounders, but as a pure batsman- eeish hardly anybody.

You've also misread Schardendorf based solely on his stats for that tournament and where he batted. He's at the very least on a par with those guys. I'm assuming you've never seen him play? He's a proper cricketer, and I will guarantee that he will look even more polished now. He's been in a professional 24/7 environment for a while. If you'd lined all those guys in order of ability back then it would probably be Myers and Schardendorf, then Madhevere and Bawa. They're all decent players, I'm just saying a coach with an eye would probably rate them in that order. Our lot here have had the "benefit" of some stop start international and domestic cricket. You're only really benefiting if you're playing regularly and doing reasonably well. It would take a special player to make continuous low scores in international cricket and learn anything.

You've got an issue with English cricket for whatever reason. You're basing your opinion on this disastrous series. Every decent team is hard to beat at home and England have also imploded, but they're unbelievably strong in the other formats and extremely difficult to beat in home conditions. Most cricket worldwide has improved, with more money, more people playing, more training, more games and more formats how can it not? Perhaps English test cricket has suffered of late, but it might just be that other teams have improved more in that format over a given period. I'm not a fan of the English for reasons outside of cricket, but you have to give some credit where its due, they have a solid system that produces very good players. If a similar system was in place here (theoretical because they have a lot more money) we'd be doing great, despite our miniscule pool.

Its quite funny that when fans or selectors want to elevate a clearly inferior player over his more talented counterparts, they come up with vague descriptions and terminology, "He's a proper cricketer", and his teammates are not? Vague , qualitative descriptions are always used as a justification when merit, hard numbers go against one's favourite. Back in the day inSA , there was a storm of controversy when Natal elevated Goolum Bodi over Kevin Peitersen. The selectors claimed it was because Bodi was a more disciplined batsmen, who stuck to the fundamentals and "was willing to learn", while Kevin Pietersen was to unorthodox, takes too many risks, improvises too much, needs discipline. Based on statistics, Kevin Pietersen was infinitely better than Bodi, but to meet quotas and get additional $$$ that came with fielding more black faces, Natal selectors literally lied, used bullshit qualitative justifications and SA lost Pietersen to England (read KP's autobiography for more details). This is exactly what you are doing here, making up facts to suit your narrative. This forum has a dedicated SA cricket section where there's nothing but whining and crying about SA's transformation/quota systems, do you know that, like you, these administrators also formulate ridiculous, contradictory excuses to justify what is at times unjustifiable. Vusi Sibanda had the arguably best batting technique in Zimbabwe, I was a big fan, but it will be dishonest to say he was the best batsmen in the team because "He's a proper cricketer", that honour belongs to Brendan Taylor despite his unorthodox style, poor footwork and unnecessary high risk style...why? because the stats say so

In my team a few years back the kid with the best technique that was amazing to watch in the nets, that I would have as first coach I know to kids about technique, finished the two season I played with him with an average of 16, boosted with a 60*.
At one stage it was 3. He just shat himself or something when he got out to the middle. Technique doesn’t equate to quality in this game. Despite most good players also having it. But the worst player can habe the best technique.

[slcricfan1]

Very interesting topic. I feel like while there are many English cricketers on par or slightly better than the best Zimbo players and when I say many I mean hundreds. However I dont think there are many English players who are much much better than the best Zimbo players or the average English player if anyone understands what I mean. This is only in first class cricket though.

[jaybro]

I think it’s pretty clear that county cricket isn’t what it used to be, you only have to see the rabble their test team is to come to that outcome

I think its just a cycle and England are in a low point in it. Their LOI sides are still world class meaning the counties are doing that OK. I think its a matter of not being able to excel in both white and red balls simaltaneously. Which is still strange given how very many players England have. 18 counties times 20 players per team is nearly 400 professional players.

I’ve never seen their batting so poor, they only have one test batsman averaging over 40 which is very concerning for them and really indicator of the drop in quality of county cricket.

I’ve grown up watching the Poms come to Oz and getting flogged, but they’ve always come out with good batsman with good records, the last two tours the drop off has been alarming.

With Root & Stokes plus their bowling lineup they can still win the odd test match against Aus or Ind, but they’re miles behind both teams imo.

[jaybro]

I’ve now watched the second innings of the 2nd match, both openers looked very good even against a decent attack of Blessing, Chatara, Tiripano & Burl.

I was really impressed with Kaitano, he showed he can play with different tempo and has lots of shots, he plays very straight as well which is a real big factor for me (my pet hate for batsman is playing across the line)

I think Kaitano could be a real key player for the qualifiers later this year, rewinding back to 2018 the selectors decided to go all guns blazing up top with Cephas, Mire & Hamilton, which didn’t work. In Zimbabwe pitches are very worn because they get so much cricket played on them, even more so in such a tournament, so it’s not easy to blaze away up top.

Hopefully Zim have learnt their lesson and we will see a more level headed approach in the first 10 overs with Regis & Kaitano opening the batting, which set a solid platform for the premier batters in the side ie Ervine, Williams & Wes