Northerns Vs Southerns (Sri Lanka Pre-Camp)

[slcricfan1]

I think it’s pretty clear that county cricket isn’t what it used to be, you only have to see the rabble their test team is to come to that outcome

I think its just a cycle and England are in a low point in it. Their LOI sides are still world class meaning the counties are doing that OK. I think its a matter of not being able to excel in both white and red balls simaltaneously. Which is still strange given how very many players England have. 18 counties times 20 players per team is nearly 400 professional players.

I’ve never seen their batting so poor, they only have one test batsman averaging over 40 which is very concerning for them and really indicator of the drop in quality of county cricket.

I’ve grown up watching the Poms come to Oz and getting flogged, but they’ve always come out with good batsman with good records, the last two tours the drop off has been alarming.

With Root & Stokes plus their bowling lineup they can still win the odd test match against Aus or Ind, but they’re miles behind both teams imo.

India still seem to be far ahead of Aus, being incredible everywhere. Still dont feel like Aus are that incredible outside of home

[Tinah09]

Very interesting topic. I feel like while there are many English cricketers on par or slightly better than the best Zimbo players and when I say many I mean hundreds. However I dont think there are many English players who are much much better than the best Zimbo players or the average English player if anyone understands what I mean. This is only in first class cricket though.

Currently watching the ashes. the past 10 overs England have scored 0 and lost 3 wickets… they are on 4/36, so the best top order batsman from county cricket are failing to bat vs Australia. This is the very definition of fear.

[Tinah09]

400 professional cricketers and this is the best England can come up with? If this is the cream, I wonder how good the okes back in Blighty are, relative to top international standards. Zim cricket might be in a perpetual state of disarray, small pool of players etc, but there are always rays of sunshine and we punch above our weight

[zimlover]

I think our Logan cup standards are not far off from the standards in County cricket, A couple of years ago Moen Ali played a couple of seasons at Tuskers, from memory i dont necessary think he did far much better than some of our local batsmen who in the next couple of years ended up playing for Zimbabwe.

I think in comparison during the period of time when Moen ali played for Tuskers his batting average was not higher than Terry Duffin during that 2012 season,even if you look at the next Logan cup season after that Moen ali stats were marginally better than than Brain Chari.

The next few season after that he went back and broke into the England lions squad and then was selected for England, how much more cricket development did he need from the time he played at Tuskers to the time he became a mainstay in the England squad?

My point is i dont think the standards of play in the Logan cup is much lower than the county level, the only reason the County scene produces more cricketers is because it has more money to throw around,and they play more games of cricket than our short Logan cup season, so if you compare this per dollar invested and return the standard of cricket in the county scene is almost at the same level as the Logan cup.

So the county scene is not a absolutely high level or standard.

All the players who have come from the county scene have not completely dominated the bowlers or the batsmen. I dont think the logan cup is such a low level as most people here would say it is. I think its a good standard of cricket the only reason we dont have a lot of talent coming through the national side is because for the full development of a international standard cricketer you need more games than what the logan cup offers.

[Googly]

Theres no way Shadendorf was better that Madhevere, Shumba and Marumani in the last U19 World Cup. You are obviously entitled to your own opinions but you are not entitled to your own facts. The facts are in the numbers, that is the most reliable matriculates that can be subjected to rigorous statisical analysis, the qualitative stuff, e.g. a cricketers posture, how they hold the bat etc are qualitative measures which are heavily subject to bias. The truth is Shadendorf made it to county cricket on the back of his British passport, not his talent, Isnt that quite obvious?? The only thing that made him "better" than his teammates was his British heritage, not his actual performance on the pitch, the number prove it./quote]

You really are struggling with comprehending what I said at every level, but that's been a feature of your retorts.
I pointed out that Schardendorf was batted out of position.
He batted at 8, which he was unfamiliar with and probably was not as well equipped to. Its a finisher's role and a bigger hitter like Marumani or Shumba would probably have done better there for the sake of balance. Hindsight is 20:20 though. In a 5 or 6 game tournament if you're using stats to compare people's ability it shows you only have a superficial grasp of cricket. What if he had to come in with 10 overs or less ea game and had to get going immediately? If you're now making a comparison with someone coming in at 3, 4 or 5 who has time on his hands you don't get it at all.

The real truth, and not your misguided opinion, is he got a contract based on his ability and potential. They were also looking for a reserve keeper and he ticked that box as well. Why do morons keep believing the English have spies up trees waiting to snatch a Zimbabwean British passport holder at the first opportunity because their cricket is so bereft?
Where did I say he was better than his team mates? I don't think you're twisting what I said either, I think you just have a superficial and very biased grasp of things. I pointed out that in terms of talent I'd have placed him behind Myers, but marginally ahead of the others and that they were all actually pretty similar.

England have about 800 000 schoolboys who play cricket, they have 290 000 registered adult cricketers, they have 350 Premier clubs and thousands of lower division clubs, they have 18 County sides with squads of 25-30 players.
We optimistically have a few hundred schoolboys, a couple of hundred adults, a dozen clubs that play cricket sporadically and 4 or 5 franchise sides.

Thats over a million cricketers vs our thousand or 0.1%
Statistically they should beat us if they selected a team of players with one eye and one leg
Despite the overwhelming odds we do remarkably well. Miraculously actually. That undeniable gap between our cricket and theirs should be much bigger than it is, but its there whether you choose to admit it or not.
That gap has widened, we need to try and reduce it.

[Tinah09]

Let’s paint a scenario, a young Zimbabwean cricketer, trained in Zimbabwe at, let’s say Peterhouse High School, represents Zimbabwe at U13 and U16 levels. Is regarded as one of the most promising cricketers of his generation and makes the Zimbabwe U19 cricket team as a non-travelling reserve at the age 16. The kid moves to the UK later that year, enrols at a college where he plays cricket. A few years later the kid wins the The Wisden Schools Cricketer of the Year, making him the best schools cricketer in the UK. The kid is obviously a prodigious talent, but we all know talent without good coaching especially from an early age is worthless. Given the ridiculous, unsubstantiated Anglophile nonsense espoused by some on this forum, none of this credit should be assigned to coaches from the supposed inferior Zimbabwe cricket setup who taught him how to hold a bat/bowl from infancy to international U19 status. The millions of highly superior UK born cricketers at school level were hopelessly outclassed by a Zimbabwean raised and trained cricketer on their home turf but by all means let’s keep on pretending the UK is light years ahead.

[Tinah09]

For those unaware, the Schadendorf revisionism is nothing new. In 2006, the Zimbabwe U19 cricket team capture international headlines by thrashing a Tim Paine-led Australia U19 team and finishing 5th at the World Cup. A Zim U19 batsman in the team named James Cameron happened to be a Uk passport holder and a county immediately offered him a contract. The articles covering this story referred to Cameron as the “best player in the Zim U19 team”, “Cameron orchestrated the demolition of Australia U19”, “Zimbabwe’s best player”. All to justify signing a clearly inferior player best in mind Chigumbura and Panyangara bowled Australia out for 70, Taylor smacked 2 centuries and Craig Ervine and Sean Williams performed well. Yet these pesky inconvenient facts were conveniently left out of articles. There is exaggeration and obfuscation and then there outright LYING. Painting these UK passport holding U19 players as the “best” players in Zim U19 teams is a shameless, obvious lie.

[Kriterion_BD]

Let’s paint a scenario, a young Zimbabwean cricketer, trained in Zimbabwe at, let’s say Peterhouse High School, represents Zimbabwe at U13 and U16 levels. Is regarded as one of the most promising cricketers of his generation and makes the Zimbabwe U19 cricket team as a non-travelling reserve at the age 16. The kid moves to the UK later that year, enrols at a college where he plays cricket. A few years later the kid wins the The Wisden Schools Cricketer of the Year, making him the best schools cricketer in the UK. The kid is obviously a prodigious talent, but we all know talent without good coaching especially from an early age is worthless. Given the ridiculous, unsubstantiated Anglophile nonsense espoused by some on this forum, none of this credit should be assigned to coaches from the supposed inferior Zimbabwe cricket setup who taught him how to hold a bat/bowl from infancy to international U19 status. The millions of highly superior UK born cricketers at school level were hopelessly outclassed by a Zimbabwean raised and trained cricketer on their home turf but by all means let’s keep on pretending the UK is light years ahead.

But thats just a single exception and not a rule. For every Muyeye there are 10 Joylord Gumbies who are first class cricketers that end up with mediocre UK club records. Muyeye is still very early on his career. Guys like Haseeb Hameed were highly rated as teens, but struggling at international level. You are right in that not every single County player will be as good as the top Logan Cup players (Taylor, Williams, Ervine, Raza, Chakabva, et al). But But 50-75% will. I think the bowlers have actually done better with both Jarvis and Blessing being top County players, although probably still at least 5-6 slots away from being the best.

I suspect the ECB has focused too much on white ball cricket after the debacle of the 2015 world cup, and once they focus on the longer version, they will probably bounce back.

[Kriterion_BD]

For those unaware, the Schadendorf revisionism is nothing new. In 2006, the Zimbabwe U19 cricket team capture international headlines by thrashing a Tim Paine-led Australia U19 team and finishing 5th at the World Cup. A Zim U19 batsman in the team named James Cameron happened to be a Uk passport holder and a county immediately offered him a contract. The articles covering this story referred to Cameron as the “best player in the Zim U19 team”, “Cameron orchestrated the demolition of Australia U19”, “Zimbabwe’s best player”. All to justify signing a clearly inferior player best in mind Chigumbura and Panyangara bowled Australia out for 70, Taylor smacked 2 centuries and Craig Ervine and Sean Williams performed well. Yet these pesky inconvenient facts were conveniently left out of articles. There is exaggeration and obfuscation and then there outright LYING. Painting these UK passport holding U19 players as the “best” players in Zim U19 teams is a shameless, obvious lie.

I can agree with this post. However, the above post still stands. They can both be correct.

[Tinah09]

Let’s paint a scenario, a young Zimbabwean cricketer, trained in Zimbabwe at, let’s say Peterhouse High School, represents Zimbabwe at U13 and U16 levels. Is regarded as one of the most promising cricketers of his generation and makes the Zimbabwe U19 cricket team as a non-travelling reserve at the age 16. The kid moves to the UK later that year, enrols at a college where he plays cricket. A few years later the kid wins the The Wisden Schools Cricketer of the Year, making him the best schools cricketer in the UK. The kid is obviously a prodigious talent, but we all know talent without good coaching especially from an early age is worthless. Given the ridiculous, unsubstantiated Anglophile nonsense espoused by some on this forum, none of this credit should be assigned to coaches from the supposed inferior Zimbabwe cricket setup who taught him how to hold a bat/bowl from infancy to international U19 status. The millions of highly superior UK born cricketers at school level were hopelessly outclassed by a Zimbabwean raised and trained cricketer on their home turf but by all means let’s keep on pretending the UK is light years ahead.

But thats just a single exception and not a rule. For every Muyeye there are 10 Joylord Gumbies who are first class cricketers that end up with mediocre UK club records. Muyeye is still very early on his career. Guys like Haseeb Hameed were highly rated as teens, but struggling at international level. You are right in that not every single County player will be as good as the top Logan Cup players (Taylor, Williams, Ervine, Raza, Chakabva, et al). But But 50-75% will. I think the bowlers have actually done better with both Jarvis and Blessing being top County players, although probably still at least 5-6 slots away from being the best.

I suspect the ECB has focused too much on white ball cricket after the debacle of the 2015 world cup, and once they focus on the longer version, they will probably bounce back.

Thank you, these are the nuanced discussions I’m here for. There are indeed a lot of complexities to be taken into consideration.