AUSTRALIA VS ZIMBABWE / 2nd ODI/ 31 August 2022

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secretzimbo
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Re: AUSTRALIA VS ZIMBABWE / 2nd ODI/ 31 August 2022

Post by secretzimbo »

sam_ahm wrote:
Wed Aug 31, 2022 10:29 am
ICC sucks, but then these kind of results justify a 10 team WC.
No, you got it the wrong way round.

10 team WC (and more significantly the general big 3 approach and total inability and lack of desire to grow the game at all in any direction) produces these kinds of results.

secretzimbo
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Re: AUSTRALIA VS ZIMBABWE / 2nd ODI/ 31 August 2022

Post by secretzimbo »

Well, not specifically this result. Because for sure our boys underperformed compared to their own abilities today. And 20 years of disastrous governance both within cricket and the country hasn't helped etc etc etc.

But again if we were playing top class teams consistently every year, I'm absolutely certain we would see some improvement at some point.

Donald
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Re: AUSTRALIA VS ZIMBABWE / 2nd ODI/ 31 August 2022

Post by Donald »

We didn't even get 50 overs of cricket today 😑😑.

At least in first ODI we had almost 80 and it was a reasonable level of competitiveness

We tanked badly this game.

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Re: AUSTRALIA VS ZIMBABWE / 2nd ODI/ 31 August 2022

Post by eugene »

I'm surprised people expected more. I think we over-performed expectations in the first ODI and then came back to reality in the second ODI. Even in the glory days of the Flowers, Streak, etc Zimbabwe have produced some pretty shocking performances in Australia - getting bowled out for 126 in 2004 for example.

We are so much further behind the cricketing world now and the gap is only getting bigger. We don't even have talent coming through that is as good as Williams, Raza, Ervine, etc, and as much as we love those guys, they have proven to not really be consistent performers against top shelf opposition.
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Googly
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Re: AUSTRALIA VS ZIMBABWE / 2nd ODI/ 31 August 2022

Post by Googly »

What you may lack in ability (and you're comparing yourself to the best players on the planet), this is a game where sheer determination and will to win can take you a long way.
That Flower era had guys that would not lie down, we lack that calibre of player now. I don't know what sparks that?
One leader who says- let's fight for our lives and not give an inch, and players follow him, perhaps?

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Re: AUSTRALIA VS ZIMBABWE / 2nd ODI/ 31 August 2022

Post by Kriterion_BD »

secretzimbo wrote:
Wed Aug 31, 2022 10:48 am
sam_ahm wrote:
Wed Aug 31, 2022 10:29 am
ICC sucks, but then these kind of results justify a 10 team WC.
No, you got it the wrong way round.

10 team WC (and more significantly the general big 3 approach and total inability and lack of desire to grow the game at all in any direction) produces these kinds of results.
The ICC has only gone to a 10 team world cup in the past few years...these types of results have been going on for decades.

But again if we were playing top class teams consistently every year, I'm absolutely certain we would see some improvement at some point.
The Houghton era is still very early, and the signs have been fairly positive. But historically speaking, this doesn't make much sense. Its been about 10 years of consistently playing the Ireland/Afghanistan level of teams, and the graph there hasn't gone up at all over 10 years and a lot of games. In fact its arguably gone down considering Zimbabwe used to win a couple of games vs AFG per series but recently got blanked. The top level of 3-4 teams is a very harsh environment, you don't get better simply by playing a lot of matches. Its way more grassroots than that. If it was so simple, teams like Sri Lanka and Bangladesh would be top 5 teams by now. No team plays more against top 8 opposition than Sri Lanka in the past decade, they are still bottom of the pile in the top 8.
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slcricfan1
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Re: AUSTRALIA VS ZIMBABWE / 2nd ODI/ 31 August 2022

Post by slcricfan1 »

Kriterion_BD wrote:
Wed Aug 31, 2022 2:56 pm
secretzimbo wrote:
Wed Aug 31, 2022 10:48 am
sam_ahm wrote:
Wed Aug 31, 2022 10:29 am
ICC sucks, but then these kind of results justify a 10 team WC.
No, you got it the wrong way round.

10 team WC (and more significantly the general big 3 approach and total inability and lack of desire to grow the game at all in any direction) produces these kinds of results.
The ICC has only gone to a 10 team world cup in the past few years...these types of results have been going on for decades.

But again if we were playing top class teams consistently every year, I'm absolutely certain we would see some improvement at some point.
The Houghton era is still very early, and the signs have been fairly positive. But historically speaking, this doesn't make much sense. Its been about 10 years of consistently playing the Ireland/Afghanistan level of teams, and the graph there hasn't gone up at all over 10 years and a lot of games. In fact its arguably gone down considering Zimbabwe used to win a couple of games vs AFG per series but recently got blanked. The top level of 3-4 teams is a very harsh environment, you don't get better simply by playing a lot of matches. Its way more grassroots than that. If it was so simple, teams like Sri Lanka and Bangladesh would be top 5 teams by now. No team plays more against top 8 opposition than Sri Lanka in the past decade, they are still bottom of the pile in the top 8.
We have improved though lol. We just beat Australia at home. And anyway we have famously gone through transition. Up until 2015 we were pretty alright. Then Sanga, Mahela, Dilshan, Malinga, Kulasekera etc retired. Our recent outfits have largely only been together since what 2020? And there's been pretty significant improvement. More games mean more experience. One win against a good side and all of a sudden confidence shoots up. Zim were so bloody close during that India series. What SZ is saying makes sense.

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zimbos_05
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Re: AUSTRALIA VS ZIMBABWE / 2nd ODI/ 31 August 2022

Post by zimbos_05 »

I get the idea that playing top teams needs to be more consistent, however the argument can also be made that we play AFG quite a bit yet continue to struggle against them, whilst they continue to improve.

They are not really playing top teams in bilateral series that often as well. A lot of their players made their mark in T20 comps and have improved, hence they have kept earning contracts and playing at a high level.

It's an easy excuse, but it's also a slightly lame excuse. If you want to improve your talent and quality, you also invest in grassroots and domestic competitions, and make a serious effort to ensure that the quality of competition provided for the teams and the level of coaches is high.

Our current bowling coach is Njabulo Ncube. That does not instill much confidence in our bowling set up.

Kriterion_BD
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Re: AUSTRALIA VS ZIMBABWE / 2nd ODI/ 31 August 2022

Post by Kriterion_BD »

zimbos_05 wrote:
Wed Aug 31, 2022 10:50 pm
I get the idea that playing top teams needs to be more consistent, however the argument can also be made that we play AFG quite a bit yet continue to struggle against them, whilst they continue to improve.

They are not really playing top teams in bilateral series that often as well. A lot of their players made their mark in T20 comps and have improved, hence they have kept earning contracts and playing at a high level.

It's an easy excuse, but it's also a slightly lame excuse. If you want to improve your talent and quality, you also invest in grassroots and domestic competitions, and make a serious effort to ensure that the quality of competition provided for the teams and the level of coaches is high.

Our current bowling coach is Njabulo Ncube. That does not instill much confidence in our bowling set up.
The funny thing is, I think the perception of Afghan is that they are better than they really are. Not saying they are a poor side, but I'm not ready to say they are are a great side either. On the other hand, their achievements are still impressive for a country that just picked up a bat or ball a mere 15 or so years ago. But, the crucial point will be where do the Afghans go from here, ie how much progress will they make in the next 10 years?

Did some stats digging, and surprisingly or perhaps not surprisingly, Bangladesh have a slightly better record than Afghanistan in T20Is against the historically established 8 teams (E8 or G8 sides) since 2015.

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engin ... ;type=team

In ODIs against the E8/G8, Afghanistan are quite poor...being only marginally ahead of Zimbabwe.

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engin ... ;type=team

Interestingly Bangladesh are 6th, well ahead of even Pakistan. This might be because PAK plays more games against the top 4-5 sides than Bangladesh. Nope, just checked vs the top 5 teams, and while the gap narrows, Bangladesh are still just ahead of Pakistan.

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engin ... ;type=team

Pakistan finally overtake Bangladesh vs the top 5, in away/neutral venues, but not by a huge margin:

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engin ... ;type=team

So in conclusion, Afghanistan are a much better T20 side than an ODI side, but even in T20s, they are basically at the Bangladesh/Sri Lanka level.
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TapsC2
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Re: AUSTRALIA VS ZIMBABWE / 2nd ODI/ 31 August 2022

Post by TapsC2 »

Afghanistan are probably going to try crack some test matches now to get more attention. Their first task will be to demolish us in December. Their fast bowlers are quite good now so we might be in trouble. Will be an interesting series

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