What is Zimbabwe Crickets ceiling?

[Googly]

The franchise stuff is the real problem. Teams assemble and have a casual couple of practices before season starts and then a few nets in between games, time permitting.
They pick the guys they know and its the same old, year in and year out, barring a juicy overseas needing to play 5 FC games that will pay.
Nobody really works with promising players. There's few of those and even less interest in bringing on a player, it's left up to the players to make their own plan to improve, or not.

Matsi is not a bad coach at all. Clearly not made much impact, but neither have any of the many others.

For the umpteenth time they need an HPC and a top quality coach and daily routines for the quality guys.

[Jemisi]

One really good batsman and one really good bowler can make a team.

Flower and Streak were what really made Zimbabwe competitive.

Crowe and Hadlee made NZ good enough to win in Australia even with little around them.

Ngarava and Blessing have shown that a bowler can turn up and suddenly be knocking over batsmen.

I think in a perfect Zimbabwean world with a couple of key players breaking out at the same time and supported by a decent keeper and spinner then 5 or 6 is probably right. The big 3 plus one of the others are always going to be ahead of the tiny resources available even if they were perfectly arranged

I kinda disagree.
Zimbabwe have only ever really been competitive around that 1999-2000 mark. That’s when we could beat everyone.
That team had Flower and Streak.
But it was also supported strongly by Murray Goodwin, Neil Johnson and Grant Flower.

Whittall and Campbell were there too and both had the odd match winning performance in them.

Strang was also there to support Streak in bowling too. Our bowling wasn’t flash then as a unit.

Yes, there's got to be other quality around. I wasn't meaning to denigrate the rest of the team, nor the decent NZ players of the 80s. But a couple who are next level allow the decent players a better collective ceiling.

[ZIMDOGGY]

One really good batsman and one really good bowler can make a team.

Flower and Streak were what really made Zimbabwe competitive.

Crowe and Hadlee made NZ good enough to win in Australia even with little around them.

Ngarava and Blessing have shown that a bowler can turn up and suddenly be knocking over batsmen.

I think in a perfect Zimbabwean world with a couple of key players breaking out at the same time and supported by a decent keeper and spinner then 5 or 6 is probably right. The big 3 plus one of the others are always going to be ahead of the tiny resources available even if they were perfectly arranged

I kinda disagree.
Zimbabwe have only ever really been competitive around that 1999-2000 mark. That’s when we could beat everyone.
That team had Flower and Streak.
But it was also supported strongly by Murray Goodwin, Neil Johnson and Grant Flower.

Whittall and Campbell were there too and both had the odd match winning performance in them.

Strang was also there to support Streak in bowling too. Our bowling wasn’t flash then as a unit.

Yes, there's got to be other quality around. I wasn't meaning to denigrate the rest of the team, nor the decent NZ players of the 80s. But a couple who are next level allow the decent players a better collective ceiling.

How I interpreted your message was we need 2x batsman to step up and one bowler to win games

I countered with we need 3 bats and 2/3 bowlers

It’s a mathematical thing and we need enough quality to fit into that quota to make it happen regularly

[Kriterion_BD]

Good thread. Don't think we've actually seen one like it on ZCF before.

Interesting question, but I'd like some more clarity on a one a very crucial point...are all the other teams also performing at their respective "ceilings"? If so, I don't see the rankings changing much across formats...ie I can see ZIM only being in the 12th +/- 1 position (ie anywhere from 11th to 13th).

I also don't think there is one format that Zimbabwe are clearly better than than others. It changes every few months...right now ZIM might be a better T20 side...in April they may be better at Tests and by September it might be T20s.

[Kriterion_BD]

How I interpreted your message was we need 2x batsman to step up and one bowler to win games

I countered with we need 3 bats and 2/3 bowlers

It’s a mathematical thing and we need enough quality to fit into that quota to make it happen regularly

If you look at Bangladesh and Afghanistan, the math becomes clearer. Both teams were rarely competitive when they had just 2 batsmen (Tamim + Shakib for Bangladesh and Rahmat + Nabi for Afghanistan). Once they got 4+ batters going (Tamim-Shakib-Mushfiq-Mahmudullah) and (Ibrahim-Gurbaz-Rahmat-Nabi) they started to compete with top 8 teams on a consistent basis. If you have 4 consistent batters, 1 is guaranteed to fire every innings, two will fire regularly, and three or more will fire together occasionally.

On the bowling front, you need 3 solid bowlers who will give you 30 overs of reliability (in an ODI).

[TapsC2]

How I interpreted your message was we need 2x batsman to step up and one bowler to win games

I countered with we need 3 bats and 2/3 bowlers

It’s a mathematical thing and we need enough quality to fit into that quota to make it happen regularly

If you look at Bangladesh and Afghanistan, the math becomes clearer. Both teams were rarely competitive when they had just 2 batsmen (Tamim + Shakib for Bangladesh and Rahmat + Nabi for Afghanistan). Once they got 4+ batters going (Tamim-Shakib-Mushfiq-Mahmudullah) and (Ibrahim-Gurbaz-Rahmat-Nabi) they started to compete with top 8 teams on a consistent basis. If you have 4 consistent batters, 1 is guaranteed to fire every innings, two will fire regularly, and three or more will fire together occasionally.

On the bowling front, you need 3 solid bowlers who will give you 30 overs of reliability (in an ODI).

What’s more important for you? World class batsmen or World Class bowlers?. I believe bowlers are the key. There was a time where we had BT, Williams, Raza, Ervine and Hami but we were still between 10-13.

I believe that you can link a lot of these rises up the rankings to teams have unearthed a couple of world class bowlers. Afghanistan have got a lot of them now including fast bowlers too. To me that’s the key difference. If you have 2 international standard batsmen surrounded by 3 guys who average maybe 25 but you have 3 word class bowlers I think you can compete.

Sri Lanka are also another team who rely heavily on their bowlers. Bangladesh have a good balance all round. The West Indies are another team who have been held together by some decent bowlers and a few sloggers.

[TapsC2]

Fast bowlers are a medium term fix that ZC can solve if they are serious about it. SA produce them every 6 months. We just need to copy their model and get the right kids playing. Ngarava is one guy and he has made a huge difference. Blessing too overall

The proteas had a 17 year old ripping through the West Indies u19s yesterday. They keep coming.

[Googly]

The Sri Lankan seamers were waay more accurate than ours. Richie and Blessing have some unique genetic attributes that make them wicket takers for sure, but in international terms they're wildly inaccurate. Just an observation.

We're not copying the SA model of producing fast bowlers or we'd have done so already, Taps.

[Googly]

There's a big incentive to bowl fast in SA, to play cricket actually, not just bowl fast. They do have a grass roots structure of sorts, but the difference is they have a lot of good schools they can channel these kids into. Ours is long gone. They have a university system that has facilities and dozens of good cricketers go thru them. Their club system has gone down the tubes a lot, but its still there as well.
Their system has degraded a lot, but its still a helluva lot better than ours.

[TapsC2]

There's a big incentive to bowl fast in SA, to play cricket actually, not just bowl fast. They do have a grass roots structure of sorts, but the difference is they have a lot of good schools they can channel these kids into. Ours is long gone. They have a university system that has facilities and dozens of good cricketers go thru them. Their club system has gone down the tubes a lot, but its still there as well.
Their system has degraded a lot, but its still a helluva lot better than ours.

How many schools play a high level of cricket in SA? 40? 50? Or more?