West Indies in Bangladesh 2021

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jaybro
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Re: West Indies in Bangladesh 2021

Post by jaybro »

Rakeem ripping BD apart here 181/6

The Tigers are in trouble
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Re: West Indies in Bangladesh 2021

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jaybro wrote:
Sat Feb 13, 2021 4:31 am
Kriterion_BD wrote:
Sat Feb 13, 2021 4:27 am

They won’t have much of choice. Windies batsmen are even worse than I thought. Chase, Hope, and a couple others average under 30. Blackwood and even Braithwaite are barely above 30. They need Hetmyer.

Mayer’s, Bonner, and Da Silva are solid.
Da Silva definitely looks a solid prospect

Bonner also doing well, but looking at his career first class average which was 22 before this series!!!! That suggests he’s unlikely to continue at this rate.

Mayers as well has performed out of his skin, again his numbers suggest he will be a ‘flash in the pan’

Maybe the reason these guys with poor first class records are doing so well in this test series is because the bowling isn’t actually that good?
Still have done better than the Shai Hopes and Rostov Chases against the same bowlers in similar conditions.

Da Silva is clearly better than Dowrich or Ramdin or any other WK the Windies have had in years.
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Re: West Indies in Bangladesh 2021

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Chase has a decent Test record, whilst Hope is a good batsman but for some reason can’t do well in test cricket. Neither are world beaters though so the bar isn’t high
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Re: West Indies in Bangladesh 2021

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Chase did far more poorly than the Mayer’s and Bonners here. Mayer’s and Bonner may not be 40 average batsmen but I doubt they will average mid or high 20s.

But I’m more interested in the series post Mortem here which will be coming shortly.
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Re: West Indies in Bangladesh 2021

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Yes the argument of who is better from the Windies is pointless, the subject most pressing is a 2-0 home loss to a Windies side missing the majority of their usual Test side, Bangladesh on paper had the better side, more experience and conditions on their side, this is a humbling defeat.

The loss of Shakib definitely tilted the series, you'd think if he bowled in the 4th innings of the 1st Test, BD would have won, that's my opinion anyways. The 2nd Test then also proved again they miss him dearly, he probably needs to be returned as captain too, Mominul was a meek captain who seemed too scared to go for victory in the 1st Test, then not brave enough in the second as he gave away his wicket softly.

Mehidy was no doubt the bright light, he showed he can be a No.7 bat in home tests and was also arguably their best bowler, although I still believe he is a home track bully, definitely with ball and most likely with bat too.

Disappointed with Mushy, he doesn't seem to score the tough runs either, he happily feasts on a third string Zim attack, but when the side needed him he couldn't come up with the innings they needed from their best and most experienced player.

I don't think Shanto is ready to be an international No.3 batsman, It's hard to see which BD player would suit that role, Habibul Bashar was the only BD player I can really remember who was well suited to first drop, maybe Tusher Imran could have been an option, but the selectors seemed to write him off early despite a plethora of runs domestically.

No doubt the long layoff between fixtures has hurt them, but again I'm not sure how much cricket some of those Windies guys had played either.
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Re: West Indies in Bangladesh 2021

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Mostly good points that I can agree with. Except on Shanto. From what I've seen, he's got all the tools to be Bangladesh's Babar Azam. Its essential that the management gives him an extended run at the #3 position, which it looks like they will do. He's only had the role for the last 12 months, and 10 of those months got wiped out due to COVID, so too early to say he's failed considering his returns before this series were as follows:

82 runs @ 42 in Pakistan
71 runs @ 71 vs Zimbabwe

Those are decent numbers against Shaheen, Naseem, and Abbas on a seamer's deck in Rawalpindi.

I'll have more to say tomorrow.
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Re: West Indies in Bangladesh 2021

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Kriterion_BD wrote:
Mon Feb 15, 2021 10:00 am
Mostly good points that I can agree with. Except on Shanto. From what I've seen, he's got all the tools to be Bangladesh's Babar Azam. Its essential that the management gives him an extended run at the #3 position, which it looks like they will do. He's only had the role for the last 12 months, and 10 of those months got wiped out due to COVID, so too early to say he's failed considering his returns before this series were as follows:

82 runs @ 42 in Pakistan
71 runs @ 71 vs Zimbabwe

Those are decent numbers against Shaheen, Naseem, and Abbas on a seamer's deck in Rawalpindi.

I'll have more to say tomorrow.
Please do not put Shanto in the same sentence as Babar :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I know you don't seem to rate him or don't like him, I remember you putting Mushy above or on par with him prior to the CWC19, I believe you have since changed your mind on that. But Babar is an elite batsman and up there with the very best, Shanto is averaging 21 from 6 Tests & 11 from 8 ODIs, both are small samples so I won't totally write him off, but you can't say he's on the same trajectory as Babar.

Shanto looks ok, but for me he hasn't got the tools or mindset to be a Test No.3, especially overseas where most BD batsman will struggle anyways.

For me Mushy has the best technique and attributes to be a Test No.3 out of all the current BD batsman I have seen so far, Shakib also did very well at CWC19 batting there, but it seems they want him down the order again for some reason.

Liton Das is another guy who I think could be a good No.3 in Tests, they tried him at opening but I think No.3 would be better for him. But again like most BD batsman Das; like Shanto & Mushy are probably more suited to the middle order.

I really liked Sabbir Rahman he had a real positive attitude when batting and all his shots even defensive pushes were played with intent. It might seem obsurd but I believe he had the attributes to be a good Test No.3, the problem with him is he wanted to be a T20 cowboy and would inevitably get himself out playing a poor shot, I think he also had some behaviour issues?
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Re: West Indies in Bangladesh 2021

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There were MANY systemic problems for why Bangladesh lost this series and why they've lost matches recently to Afghanistan and Zimbabwe. Obviously Bangladesh aren't that good a Test side. But they should certainly be good enough to win at home against sides like the Windies, Afghanistan, and Zimbabwe.

The Bangladeshi approach to the game has been wrong on a few different levels. Playing 4 spinners is a very defensive move if the pitches aren't raging turners, but more so if all you have are orthodox finger spinners. The lack of variation negates much of the advantage of playing so many spinners. The other thing is, if you are going to play 4 spinners you have to back them in the field as a captain with close-in catchers. Its been mentioned that if the spinners didn't bowl loosely, they wouldn't need to bowl with an ODI field. However, Mominul has to realize that yes, boundaries will be conceded but the run rate isn't as important in Test cricket. When a captain has 5 slips in place for a fast bowler, he's OK with some balls being driven through cover for boundaries.

We should have played 2 seamers. Abu Jayed is clearly the best seamer, why did he sit out in Chattogram? Adding a second seamer would give more variation to the bowling attack.

On the batting front, perhaps the team did OK in Chattogram because if the other team chases 400 to win a Test, its probably not your batting that lost you the game. But in Dhaka, Cornwall and Warrican showed how important it is to have bat pad catchers in Test cricket. The Bangladesh spinners actually had better economy rates in the series, but the Windies spinners had fielders who could take advantage of the pitch whereas the Bangladesh spinners didn't until the the last day of the series. Too little to late from Mominul IMO.

My recommendations for the Test team moving forward:

1) Play 2 seamers at home regardless of pitch conditions (Abu Jayed + somone else). If Shakib is fit you still have room to play 3 spinners. If Shakib is not there, bat Mehidy Miraz at 6 or 7, and you still have room for 3 spinners.

2) Support the bowlers in the field, especially the spinners in Asian conditions as noted above. Boundaries will be hit, but 4 or 5 boundaries in a spell won't cost you a Test match. But not taking 1-2 wickets will.

3) The experienced batsmen (Tamim, Mushy, Mominul, Shakib) will sort themselves in time. Bangladesh hadn't played any first class cricket prior to this series due to COVID unlike most of the other Test sides who have either played Tests earlier or managed to restart their first class leagues. Time to phase out older players who keep failing like Mithun.

4) Give Shanto a proper long run at the #3 position. He's had the last 4 Tests, give him at least 6 more. If he doesn't average at least 30 after those 10 games, look for someone else. Time to bring Mosaddek back in to replace Mithun.

5) Bounce is just as important a weapon for spinners as turn is. Therefore, look to get taller spinners. Miraz and Taijul are both 5'4" but since Miraz has potential as an all-rounder he stays. Nayeem is 6'1" and was getting decent bounce throughout. Potential replacements are SLA Rakibul (at least 5'10") and young leg spinner Rishad Hossain who is 6'4". A leggie also adds additional variation. As former U-19ers Rakibul and Rishad may need a bit more time before being called up to the senior side.
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Re: West Indies in Bangladesh 2021

Post by Kriterion_BD »

jaybro wrote:
Tue Feb 16, 2021 12:28 am


I know you don't seem to rate him or don't like him, I believe you have since changed your mind on that. But Babar is an elite batsman and up there with the very best, Shanto is averaging 21 from 6 Tests & 11 from 8 ODIs, both are small samples so I won't totally write him off, but you can't say he's on the same trajectory as Babar.
I do rate Babar now. The reason I didn't rate him earlier was because Babar averaged 25 in his first 15 Tests. Since they both debuted at a young age, I think Shanto should also be given similar amount of time.
, I remember you putting Mushy above or on par with him prior to the CWC19
Well I wasn't terribly far off the mark. Mushy averaged 50 at the WC and had a 100 against Australia's bowling attack while Babar averaged 60 with hundreds vs NZ and Bangladesh's bowling attacks. Not a huge difference but yes, I'll admit Babar is a bit better than Mushy in ODIs at the moment.
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Re: West Indies in Bangladesh 2021

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Kriterion_BD wrote:
Tue Feb 16, 2021 12:28 am
There were MANY systemic problems for why Bangladesh lost this series and why they've lost matches recently to Afghanistan and Zimbabwe. Obviously Bangladesh aren't that good a Test side. But they should certainly be good enough to win at home against sides like the Windies, Afghanistan, and Zimbabwe.

The Bangladeshi approach to the game has been wrong on a few different levels. Playing 4 spinners is a very defensive move if the pitches aren't raging turners, but more so if all you have are orthodox finger spinners. The lack of variation negates much of the advantage of playing so many spinners. The other thing is, if you are going to play 4 spinners you have to back them in the field as a captain with close-in catchers. Its been mentioned that if the spinners didn't bowl loosely, they wouldn't need to bowl with an ODI field. However, Mominul has to realize that yes, boundaries will be conceded but the run rate isn't as important in Test cricket. When a captain has 5 slips in place for a fast bowler, he's OK with some balls being driven through cover for boundaries.

We should have played 2 seamers. Abu Jayed is clearly the best seamer, why did he sit out in Chattogram? Adding a second seamer would give more variation to the bowling attack.

On the batting front, perhaps the team did OK in Chattogram because if the other team chases 400 to win a Test, its probably not your batting that lost you the game. But in Dhaka, Cornwall and Warrican showed how important it is to have bat pad catchers in Test cricket. The Bangladesh spinners actually had better economy rates in the series, but the Windies spinners had fielders who could take advantage of the pitch whereas the Bangladesh spinners didn't until the the last day of the series. Too little to late from Mominul IMO.

My recommendations for the Test team moving forward:

1) Play 2 seamers at home regardless of pitch conditions (Abu Jayed + somone else). If Shakib is fit you still have room to play 3 spinners. If Shakib is not there, bat Mehidy Miraz at 6 or 7, and you still have room for 3 spinners.

2) Support the bowlers in the field, especially the spinners in Asian conditions as noted above. Boundaries will be hit, but 4 or 5 boundaries in a spell won't cost you a Test match. But not taking 1-2 wickets will.

3) The experienced batsmen (Tamim, Mushy, Mominul, Shakib) will sort themselves in time. Bangladesh hadn't played any first class cricket prior to this series due to COVID unlike most of the other Test sides who have either played Tests earlier or managed to restart their first class leagues. Time to phase out older players who keep failing like Mithun.

4) Give Shanto a proper long run at the #3 position. He's had the last 4 Tests, give him at least 6 more. If he doesn't average at least 30 after those 10 games, look for someone else. Time to bring Mosaddek back in to replace Mithun.

5) Bounce is just as important a weapon for spinners as turn is. Therefore, look to get taller spinners. Miraz and Taijul are both 5'4" but since Miraz has potential as an all-rounder he stays. Nayeem is 6'1" and was getting decent bounce throughout. Potential replacements are SLA Rakibul (at least 5'10") and young leg spinner Rishad Hossain who is 6'4". A leggie also adds additional variation. As former U-19ers Rakibul and Rishad may need a bit more time before being called up to the senior side.
Good summary, I still think Shanto will be a failure at first drop, especially if they keep persisting with him in the early parts of his career. He'd be better suited down at 5 or 6 for now, I'd be making him and Mushy swap
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