West Indies in Bangladesh 2021

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jaybro
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Re: West Indies in Bangladesh 2021

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Nate646 wrote:
Sun Feb 07, 2021 10:33 am

Awesome win for the Windies! It was well worth staying up all night to watch. Anyone fancy SA pulling off the same against Pak tomorrow?
They’re certainly giving themselves a good chance 211/3 they need another 159 with 7 wickets in hand.
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Re: West Indies in Bangladesh 2021

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Unbelievable knock from Mayers and sensational support from Bonner. Hats off to the Windies!!

For Bangladesh this is a pretty devasting loss, and with so many losses against underdogs at home in the last couple of years its clear that Bangladesh are simply not good enough in the Test format.

The biggest issue is the general approach to the game.

1) Over-reliance on orthodox finger spin. This is NOT a criticism of our spinners but rather a criticism on how the culture of spin bowling is viewed in Bangladesh. There has only just been a modicum of interest in developing wrist/leg spinners in Bangladesh, but only for the limited overs teams. Wrist spinners are treated with disdain in our domestic circuit and every team will have 2 or more orthodox spinners opting for control instead of taking the gamble to develop a wrist spinner. Why does it matter? Well wrist spinners will almost always generate more turn than a finger spinner on any given wicket. Secondarily, wrist spinners offer the variety of being able to turn the ball both ways. Like I said, this is not an attack on our spinners - Shakib's record speaks for itself. Taijul - on the right pitch on his day can be world class. Miraz is young and has won games for Bangladesh already. Nayeem is raw but has more potential than the other 3 IMO.

2) Timid captaincy has plagued Bangladesh for years. Mominul seems to be copying Mushfiq in exactly how not to captain. I've always felt Bangladesh's spinners are least 2-3 points better than their bowling averages would indicate because they get so little support from the captain - both in terms of field placements and words. In the same match situation, an Ashwin or Jadeja would be operating with a silly point, slip, leg slip, and short leg but a Bangladeshi spinner would get at most 3 bat-pad catchers. If any other spinner's captain would use 3 close in fielders, a Bangladeshi spinner will get just 2. On top of that, they will cop most of the blame when the team loses. If you are not going to back your spinners, then why play 4 of them in an XI? On top of all that there's the reviewing decisions which were not out, and then failing to review plumb lbw shouts.

3) Related to point #1 is the lack of development of the pace bowling. If only 1 seamer plays in a home XI - then how will any of the seamers learn how to bowl in home conditions? Its unlikely to happen at the domestic level because a) the quality is much lower and b) seamers rarely bowl more than 10-12 overs in a day in domestic FC games. Then you take these undercooked seamers and throw 3 of them in an XI overseas and expect them to bowl 15 or 20 overs in a day and take wickets. They won't just magically take wickets just because the pitches are green or have more pace and bounce any more than a spinner can just show up to the subcontinent and expect to take wickets.

4) Not picking the best possible side. Too many players with genuine Test potential have been mishandled. Prime example being Mosaddek Hossain who has a first class average of 57 with 3 double hundreds. He's not in even the squad, but a player like Mohammad Mithun who has a domestic first class average lower (33) than Mosaddek's Test average (41) gets into every damn squad, and often makes the playing XI. Absolutely dumb.

Its not just this particular match. Anyone can lose a Test match, its the consistent losses against teams we are favored to beat that is indicative of major issues.

The only goal for Bangladesh now will be to try and square the series and then see if you can get another win in Sri Lanka to try and avoid finishing dead last in the inaugural WTC cycle. Won't be an easy task, but one the team needs to focus on above all else.
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jaybro
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Re: West Indies in Bangladesh 2021

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I’ve told you before mate, the Bangladesh spinners are average bowlers who have done well at home in favourable conditions on pitches that are spinner friendly.

Put them on a pitch where things aren’t tipped heavily in their favour and they struggle as they have done overseas previously.
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Re: West Indies in Bangladesh 2021

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jaybro wrote:
Mon Feb 08, 2021 9:33 am
I’ve told you before mate, the Bangladesh spinners are average bowlers who have done well at home in favourable conditions on pitches that are spinner friendly.

Put them on a pitch where things aren’t tipped heavily in their favour and they struggle as they have done overseas previously.


Thats all spinners barring a select few. And probably all spinners in the subcontinent if they don't have bat pad fielders. I've even seen Murali struggle to pick wickets on flat Mirpur surfaces. In fact, it goes for most fast bowlers too. Hazlewood and Cummins - terrific pair of quicks but in Bangladesh a combined bowling average of 36 which is not eye-popping.
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Re: West Indies in Bangladesh 2021

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Kriterion_BD wrote:
Mon Feb 08, 2021 6:29 pm



Thats all spinners barring a select few. And probably all spinners in the subcontinent if they don't have bat pad fielders. I've even seen Murali struggle to pick wickets on flat Mirpur surfaces. In fact, it goes for most fast bowlers too. Hazlewood and Cummins - terrific pair of quicks but in Bangladesh a combined bowling average of 36 which is not eye-popping.
It's not all spinners, a good spinner can still be somewhat effective on a pitch that doesn't suit them, even if that means keeping one end tight. Looking at the below stats since 2015 for spinners away from home you can see the likes of Ashwin & Lyon are still really effective, whilst despite the likes of Yasir struggling with an average of 40, it's nothing in comparison to how poorly Mehidy & Taijul have fared away from the dust bowls of Mirpur

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engin ... pe=bowling

Once you look at purely matches outside of Asia the numbers are worse, although the samply size is much smaller

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engin ... pe=bowling
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Re: West Indies in Bangladesh 2021

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I admit that Taijul and Miraz are average spinners as the numbers show outside of Asia. Bangladesh didn't lose to the Windies because the pitch didn't turn - they lost because the spinners didn't bowl in the right areas, Mominul's captaincy was very stagnant, coupled with misuse of the DRS (failed to review an out, wasted a review on an inside edge). But I think its unfair to categorize all Bangladeshi or Mirpuri wickets to be dustbowls. Other recent Tests that we lost to ZIM and AFG in 2018/19, it wasn't that the pitch didn't offer turn...its that the batters failed to score a defendable number of runs.

https://www.espncricinfo.com/series/eng ... -scorecard

In the England Test in 2016, Bangladesh scored nearly 300 in the 3rd innings at over 4 an over. I don't think that qualifies as a minefield or a dustbowl. In the 4th innings, England reached 100 without loss - at more than 4 an over - before collapsing to 160 all out. Pitches don't just change that drastically.

https://www.espncricinfo.com/series/eng ... -scorecard

The 2017 Australia Test is perhaps the only one you could argue was a dustbowl given the scores. Still, the lowest innings total was 217.

https://www.espncricinfo.com/series/wi- ... -scorecard
https://www.espncricinfo.com/series/wi- ... -scorecard

The 2018 West Indies series saw Bangladesh post 500+ in Mirpur, and while the pitch was a turner, the West Indies spinners didn't get the same success. You have to put the ball in the right areas even on a turning wicket. You won't get wickets just by showing up.

Although not a home Test, the 2017 Colombo Test was also not a raging turner given that both Sri Lankan innings were 300+ and Bangladesh racked up 450+. Shakib-Taijul-Miraz picked up 12 of the 20 wickets in that Test.
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Re: West Indies in Bangladesh 2021

Post by sam_ahm »

Wanted to post on this, miraculous win there for the West Indies. Mayers, what an innings!!! Simply unbelievable!

Bangladesh will be kicking themselves, pretty ordinary stuff by their spinners, Mehdy was ok but got no support in the absence of Shakib.

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Re: West Indies in Bangladesh 2021

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Kriterion_BD wrote:
Tue Feb 09, 2021 8:03 am
I admit that Taijul and Miraz are average spinners as the numbers show outside of Asia. Bangladesh didn't lose to the Windies because the pitch didn't turn - they lost because the spinners didn't bowl in the right areas, Mominul's captaincy was very stagnant, coupled with misuse of the DRS (failed to review an out, wasted a review on an inside edge). But I think its unfair to categorize all Bangladeshi or Mirpuri wickets to be dustbowls. Other recent Tests that we lost to ZIM and AFG in 2018/19, it wasn't that the pitch didn't offer turn...its that the batters failed to score a defendable number of runs.
Not all wickets they produce are dustbowls, but the ones they've won tests on at home have been! That test in 2016 v England might have played ok in the 1st innings, but by the time England were trying to chase the total down the ball was ripping off the deck. Watch the highlights, Mehidy; who is not a great turner of the ball as he doesn't really rip it, was getting the ball to spit everywhere.

In the end I stand by my statement that Mehidy & Taijul are 'average spinners' and unless the pitch is favouring them heavily they will not spin Bangladesh to victory and on SENA decks they won't even be able to hold up an end.
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Re: West Indies in Bangladesh 2021

Post by sloandog »

The West Indies are a much better side than they were between 2000 and 2014. They had some shocking series and were picking players simply not good enough.

They have some seriously talented lads playing in this side and they're showing they have some grit and some fight about them.

Mayers is only 28 and should look to cement his spot in the side now.

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Re: West Indies in Bangladesh 2021

Post by Kriterion_BD »

jaybro wrote:
Tue Feb 09, 2021 11:04 pm
Not all wickets they produce are dustbowls, but the ones they've won tests on at home have been! That test in 2016 v England might have played ok in the 1st innings, but by the time England were trying to chase the total down the ball was ripping off the deck. Watch the highlights, Mehidy; who is not a great turner of the ball as he doesn't really rip it, was getting the ball to spit everywhere.

In the end I stand by my statement that Mehidy & Taijul are 'average spinners' and unless the pitch is favouring them heavily they will not spin Bangladesh to victory and on SENA decks they won't even be able to hold up an end.
I agree about Miraz and Taijul being average. But that England game was what I'd call a sporting wicket (ie had turn), it was neither flat nor a minefield. It was what you would expect for a SC pitch. Balls weren't keeping low or uneven bounce. England openers got to 100 for no loss in the 4th innings. They just collapsed in conditions they weren't used to. If a team scores 300 in any innings on a grassy wicket where the ball does a little bit it doesn't mean its an unfit wicket.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQM_MVq4ld0

Thats the only highlights I could find of the England match. As you can see, there was gentle turn only. It was just a case of one of those rare batting collapses. You take the England team on current form, and they'd likely chase it down.

Even the Australia game from 2017, not all of Taijul's balls are turning. Its all about putting the ball in the right areas:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OggeV1bYFsk

But you look at the 4th innings totals (160 from England, 240+ from Australia) and they aren't unusually low for Test cricket, so the catergorizing the pitches as "dustbowls" is at least overly simplistic, if not inaccurate.

In 2017 Bangladesh piled up 600 declared on a green track in Christchurch but collapsed to 150 all out or something in the 3rd innings. The wicket didn't suddenly become unplayable. It was just shit batting. Same with England in 2016. The Australia wicket was a bit tougher as 220 was an average innings total by either side. That might begin to be considered a dustbowl or a minefield.

The reason Bangladesh have lost these 3 Tests vs ZIM/AFG/WI that they should be winning was down to shit batting in the first two instances. And crap 4th innings bowling vs WI. If it was merely the pitch not being a dustbowl, wouldn't you expect the Windies to have dominated the other 4 days as well? The pitch didn't magically change on day 5 here.
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