Zimbabwe Vs West Indies | 2nd Test | 12-16 Feb 2023 | Bulawayo

[zimbos_05]

To me you can't just rule out T20s because you don't like them. Unfortunately that's the most popular version of cricket there is. Wes has 7 50s there. We can't just ignore them. He scored 70 in Rawalpindi in only his 3rd match but people want act like he is a bum. This is not a question about talent. If only you knew how highly even South African coaches rate him.

This is about poor form, work ethic and getting too comfortable. Things that can be fixed. A lot of it has to do with our development structures as well we are sending half baked kids to open whilst our senior players hide in the middle order. There is a lot that can change.

Judging by the standards here Kaia should have stopped playing at 25.

I'm guessing this is directed at Kriterion as I didn't rule out T20s.

I think if you trawl through my posts you will find I have been quite consistent on Wes. I have always advocated for him as a white ball player over red ball, but I still think he has a lot of work to do to his game. He is such a natural player that it is frustrating to see him playing fanciful shots rather than conventional.

I'm sure coaches rate him, but that still needs to translate on the field and more consistently. I don't doubt his potential future, I am skeptical about his progression.

[zimbos_05]

.

They could play for 15 years in the national team and average between 25-30, that would in my opinion reflect being the backbone of the team, but not reaching similar heights.

If an average of 25 is our backbone, we may as well just accept mediocrity as our future.

[Kriterion_BD]

You ignored the whole part where I said LIMITED OVERS none of those young guys are doing it in limited overs cricket. Why? If its that easy.

We don't play enough Test cricket for us to ever get a decent opinion. Shanto at 24 has played more tests than Ervine, Raza and Williams. Let's talk limited overs cricket. Where are your kids banging hundreds? Don't hide with test cricket

I've already addressed that issue. Bangladesh aren't a team competing with Zimbabwe for qualifying spots in any ICC tournament at the current time. Very few batters are debuting in Bangladesh before age 21 for the past several years. Our newest debutant is Towhid Hridoy, and he's already 22, and highly unlikely to get a game in the series vs England unless someone is injured. Guys like Mohammad Naim have played only a handful of matches.

I've used Tests as an example, because scoring Test hundreds is considered more difficult than ODI hundreds. If a guy can score a Test hundred, he can probably score an ODI hundred too. Probably, though not always necessary.

I mentioned guys like Tector and Zadran, because Ireland and Afghanistan are the nearest teams to Zimbabwe that most people judge by.

[TapsC2]

You ignored the whole part where I said LIMITED OVERS none of those young guys are doing it in limited overs cricket. Why? If its that easy.

We don't play enough Test cricket for us to ever get a decent opinion. Shanto at 24 has played more tests than Ervine, Raza and Williams. Let's talk limited overs cricket. Where are your kids banging hundreds? Don't hide with test cricket

I've already addressed that issue. Bangladesh aren't a team competing with Zimbabwe for qualifying spots in any ICC tournament at the current time. Very few batters are debuting in Bangladesh before age 21 for the past several years. Our newest debutant is Towhid Hridoy, and he's already 22, and highly unlikely to get a game in the series vs England unless someone is injured. Guys like Mohammad Naim have played only a handful of matches.

I've used Tests as an example, because scoring Test hundreds is considered more difficult than ODI hundreds. If a guy can score a Test hundred, he can probably score an ODI hundred too. Probably, though not always necessary.

I mentioned guys like Tector and Zadran, because Ireland and Afghanistan are the nearest teams to Zimbabwe that most people judge by.

So who is going to take over when Tamim, Mushfiqur, Shakib and Mahmudullah retire? Let's say in 2025? I'm just curious. Does that not concern you? Does the next generation have what it takes to replace them? Can you not see its the exact same question? Do you have 4 guys ready to deliver the way these guys have?

[Kriterion_BD]

So who is going to take over when Tamim, Mushfiqur, Shakib and Mahmudullah retire? Let's say in 2025? I'm just curious. Does that not concern you? Does the next generation have what it takes to replace them? Can you not see its the exact same question? Do you have 4 guys ready to deliver the way these guys have?

Short answer: Probably some of the guys who won the U-19 World Cup. Again, please note I haven’t said any of those guys “will eventually come good” or will be world class.

Good questions tho. I’ll be posting it in other forum in the weeks and months and years to come but I’ll post my current thoughts here since you’ve asked.

I’ll start with Mahmudullah because he’s the easiest to replace being a notch below the other 3. Riyad was a lot like Williams: a bang average cricketer for the first decade of his career. Since 2015, he’s been a vital cog in the wheel but easier to replace. The front-runners to replace him would be Mosaddek Hossain and Yasir Ali. Both have shown flashes, but neither has impressed. Granted they haven’t gotten many opportunities at a stretch because the Big 4 have been so consistent for long.

Shakib’s heir apparent is obviously Mehidy Miraz. Miraz had gotten off to a slowish start to his career, Player of the Series vs England notwithstanding. But in the last year he has really upped his game. You’ve been dismissing Tests for this discussion, but last year he averaged 50+ in ODIs and single handedly destroyed India. One could argue he’s already a world class all-rounder.

Tamim will be hard to replace IMO. My pick for his replacement would be his namesake Tanzid Hasan Tamim, also a hard hitting lefty bat. He’s got decent domestic records, but no international hundreds (before you ask) because he hasn’t been capped yet.

Mushy’s replacement also will be tough just because of how good a batter he is. As a WK he was poor so that’s easy to replace. As a 4-5 batter, we have a few promising options. Towhid has just been called up for the first time and is a natural #4. He’s got the pedigree and the talent.
My personal favorite though is 18 year old Ariful Islam. Last year he hit two centuries vs Pakistan and South Africa at the U19 World Cup. Same World Cup where Emanuel Bawa couldn’t buy a run against much lesser teams.

Apart from the above youngsters, my favorite is Shanto. He’s already got 2 Test hundreds, can play all around the wicket, and good against both pace and spin (when the ball isn’t turning viciously). He has one glaring technique issue and that is chasing balls a foot outside off stump he should be leaving in his sleep. I’ve rarely seen him edge one pitching in the corridor so it’s less a technique issue and more a shot selection one. The BPL is a third tier league, but it always helps to be adjudged the Player of the Tournament and top the run chart.

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, there is no guarantee these guys will be world class, unlike Madhevere or Marumani, there isn’t even a guarantee they can match our Big 4, at least individually. However, their task will be an order of magnitude (that’s 10x for anyone wondering) easier because the Big 4 had no bowling attack to back their runs. The next gen will have the benefit of having a pace attack that is stronger than the spinners.

[TapsC2]

I like Mehidy Miraz and I'm not surprised he is getting better with age. He is 25 or 26 right? It just goes back to my main point. Time is important. Cricket development is not really linear because of the mental aspect of the game. That part is the hardest to predict.

I have also always wondered whether it's better to have 4 class cricketers carry a whole team or rather have 11 competent cricketers. Like in our situation I believe instead of looking for 4 BTs you can just getting 6 or 7 Hami's batting around someone like Gary Ballance.

[Kriterion_BD]

I like Mehidy Miraz and I'm not surprised he is getting better with age. He is 25 or 26 right? It just goes back to my main point. Time is important. Cricket development is not really linear because of the mental aspect of the game. That part is the hardest to predict.

I have also always wondered whether it's better to have 4 class cricketers carry a whole team or rather have 11 competent cricketers. Like in our situation I believe instead of looking for 4 BTs you can just getting 6 or 7 Hami's batting around someone like Gary Ballance.

Of course time is important. However, every country has their particular constraints (barring probably India, Australia, and England...and even then I can see England and Australia struggling from time to time). Zimbabwe have more constraints than any other full member except perhaps Afghanistan. For example, Bangladesh never tours England or Australia, and tours South Africa occasionally, but tours New Zealand frequently. So it will always be unlikely our boys can do well in English or Aussie conditions. Going back to ZIM...the various constraints (eg lack of A team tours, inadequate domestic T20 competition, sub-standard Logan Cup, lack of tours vs major cricket nations) means that continued development of Madhevere/Marumani/Shumba/others is going to be quite difficult/unlikely.

For example, Wes is generally considered on this forum to not be ready for Test cricket yet. Probably correct. But then whats the alternative? Does he knock about the Logan Cup to score 3-4000 domestic FC runs? Is that really going to improve his game to a level similar to the current Big 3? My theory is that for teams with weaker domestic cricket, the best way for a young player to develop his game is at the international level. I know zimbos will disagree, and thats OK, this is just my opinion.

[mnelson68]

Can someone please explain to me why PJ Moor couldn't get a game with a test average of 35.53 ? Much better than most who are playing logan cup yet he is off to Ireland. Bad loss for Zimbabwean cricket imo

[ZIMDOGGY]

For example, Wes is generally considered on this forum to not be ready for Test cricket yet. Probably correct. But then whats the alternative? Does he knock about the Logan Cup to score 3-4000 domestic FC runs? Is that really going to improve his game to a level similar to the current Big 3? My theory is that for teams with weaker domestic cricket, the best way for a young player to develop his game is at the international level. I know zimbos will disagree, and thats OK, this is just my opinion.

Not just your opinion.

It is said that Andy Flower strongly believed the only way for a player to improve in Zimbabwe was to throw them into the test arena. The local stuff would have a negative impact on their development and playing habits.

He also told Taitenda Taibu (In Taibu's book) to ignore advice from other players in the Zimbabwe team as they werent good enough and had losing habits.

The other side of the coin.

[Kriterion_BD]

Not just your opinion.

It is said that Andy Flower strongly believed the only way for a player to improve in Zimbabwe was to throw them into the test arena. The local stuff would have a negative impact on their development and playing habits.

He also told Taitenda Taibu (In Taibu's book) to ignore advice from other players in the Zimbabwe team as they werent good enough and had losing habits.

The other side of the coin.

Its the same story in Bangladesh. Thats where Tamim/Mushfiq/Shakib developed. Of that trio, Shakib was always averaging 30+ (in ODIs), but Mushfiq started off with a Marumani-esque average in the mid-teens. Tamim was in between averaging around 25. Now when a teenager averages 25-30 against top sides is clearly ready to play. Now Mushfiq had a very poor start to his career, but what set him apart was his technique and his organization at the crease. But had we had a Big 4 at that time, its also possible Mushfiq's career wouldn't have lasted long enough for him to develop.

Thats three success stories....but the list of failures is much longer. Ashraful, Aftab, Kapali, Tamim's brother Nafees - who preceded the Big 4. After them there was Raqibul, Anamul, Sabbir, Nasir, Soumya, Naim, and probably a few others I'm forgetting. Jury is still out on Shanto, Afif, Mosaddek, and Yasir.