Our Test Openers

[betterdays]

Tino is an extreme case of an international player who just cannot score runs freely. Inevitably mere crease occupation will mean your score moves from zero to something, and if you last loooooong enough, that something will look good than it really is!

160 in a first innings looks good anywhere, anytime, anyhow ... in a second innings it may look silly, especially if it's a 'time' draw and there's wickets in hand and not too many left in the chase

[eugene]

I will take a two-day 160 in any test we ever play.

[Jemisi]

Touche

[FlowerPower]

I go with Duffin! He will score quicker than Tino. Don't put him and Tino in the same bracket. As you always insist, you may compare their 'current' Logan Cup strike rates if you wish - huge gulf (actually between Tino and everone else who matters). That fellow is an enigma. Flashy at one point, even selected to play ODIs and the WC! He's 'reinvented' himself, so now Tino is an extreme case of an international player who just cannot score runs freely. Inevitably mere crease occupation will mean your score moves from zero to something, and if you last loooooong enough, that something will look good than it really is. And that's the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth!

I may be wrong about strike rate, but I don't think a high strike rate is requisite for an opener (nor is it a bad thing, e.g. Hayden and Viru), but what is of vital importance is the ability to see off the new ball. As for the Duffin vs Mawoyo argument, I suspect you have lapses in memory, not to worry, reminder here.

I still insist that Vusi should be a 'top' order batsman, not an opener. It's like England getting KP or Bell to open. Unthinkable at Test level! You're either Sehwag/Sanath/Hayden or you're not. Dilshan and McCullum seem to forget that from time to time as well! We're wasting Vusi as an opener!

I tend to agree with you and if we dropped him to 3 and moved Hami to one, that could be a viable solution, but the worry is Hami has done the opener job and doesn't seem to like it either, although if we are to be deligent and meticoulous in our analysis we would note that this was in the ODI arena and not opening in Test, maybe its worth a try.

Ideal case would if Ballance were available, open with him and Tino, and drop Vusi to 3, move Hami to 5, and drop Taibu where most wikis are in the middle order with Waller (6/7)...but I am not arguing a begging for Ballance, why can't we produce another if we produced him? He's only 21, surely there must be an 18 year old out there we can groom?

[hhm]

I may be wrong about strike rate, but I don't think a high strike rate is requisite for an opener (nor is it a bad thing, e.g. Hayden and Viru), but what is of vital importance is the ability to see off the new ball. As for the Duffin vs Mawoyo argument, I suspect you have lapses in memory, not to worry, reminder here.

Strike rates are not that important for openers. I was referring to the point where Duffin is being categorised with Tino hence it's said they can't open together, because in reality he's definitely not as slow as Tino. Duffin's Test/FC level his strike rate is relatively similar to many of our top batsmen and indeed many top batsman in international cricekt past&present! The 'new' Tino is extreme(even when you look at this current FC SR), so apart from being left or right handed, they are two classes of players. As for the exchange we had to which you point to, I suspect you misread it because I conceded that Tino is superior to Duffin from your standpoint to which you went to great and impressive lengths to argue, not that it's the case but I accept that, and as much as I stand by the fact that Duffin is superior to Tino from my perspective you should accept that. We look at things differently but we should have harmony in disagreement, and that's what this forum is about.

it's absurd to to paraphrase F1 for anything about Tino, but for example, one may say Vettel is better driver than Alonso, and obviously have the stats to prove it on recent results, but just as many people will have a different opinion and have other less quantifiable aspects of Alonso's driving/car which leads them to argue otherwise. Again I say Schumacher is the alltime best, but believe you me even those magnificent stats are insufficient to lead people to bestow him with that honor. Are you with me?

Anyway, Hami could be tried as an opener, I have no issues with that. I'm concerned about him and would have dropped him to 5/6 instead but ok. Anything, as long as the classy Vusi is allowed the platform to grace the cricket loving world with his superb skills, by moving to the 'less challenging' top order.

I ask only one thing of you. As you no doubt will have noticed, I cannot entertain any references to Ballance whatsover(assuming you directed that one or will direct any at me). Along with Williams and Sean etc, this is probably the last time I make direct mention of their names at all and will gladly ignore their very existence to Zim cricekt at all levels!

[FlowerPower]

..... I suspect you misread it because I conceded that Tino is superior to Duffin from your standpoint to which you went to great and impressive lengths to argue, not that it's the case but I accept that, and as much as I stand by the fact that Duffin is superior to Tino from my perspective you should accept that. We look at things differently but we should have harmony in disagreement, and that's what this forum is about. ......

You sir make the Jonathans of this world green with envy!! I nearly fell off my chair!! Classic! Are these not your own words:

Hold your horses FlowerPower. I acknowledge that I'm wrong! You have solidly proven that Tino is superior to Duffin and your arguments are sound.

Pinch me, slap me...I'm gob smacked!

[FlowerPower]

Strike rates are not that important for openers. I was referring to the point where Duffin is being categorised with Tino hence it's said they can't open together, because in reality he's definitely not as slow as Tino. Duffin's Test/FC level his strike rate is relatively similar to many of our top batsmen and indeed many top batsman in international cricekt past&present! The 'new' Tino is extreme(even when you look at this current FC SR), so apart from being left or right handed, they are two classes of players.

In reality...

Duffin ODI SR 54 (about 3.24 runs every over)/ Mawoyo ODI SR 42 (about 2.4 runs every over)
difference of half a run per over (or difference of 6 runs after 10 overs), put differently if they were batting together, after 20 overs equally shared, statistically , Duffin would have scored 6 more runs than Mawoyo...

Duffin Test SR 44(about 2.64 runs every over)/ Mawoyo Test SR 36(about 2.16 runs every over)
difference of less than half a run per over (or difference of 5 runs after 10 overs), put differently if they were batting together, after 20 overs equally shared, statistically , Duffin would have scored 5 more runs than Mawoyo...

Duffin FC SR undefined/ Mawoyo FC SR 43.31
Duffin FC List A undefined/ Mawoyo List A SR 71

You are definitely right, Duffin is faster, but hardly the chalk and cheese you imply or have I misread you again,..

[Jemisi]

Another question regarding Duffin - what is his fielding like? I haven't seen enough of him lately.

[Flower power]

Stats can be misleading though . You should also consider the circumstances surrounding the match , eg opposition , grounds , weather you were playing to win or draw , or if he is playing from instructions from the dressing room .

[FlowerPower]

Stats can be misleading though . You should also consider the circumstances surrounding the match , eg opposition , grounds , weather you were playing to win or draw , or if he is playing from instructions from the dressing room .

True power, but aside stats, anyone can claim anything, and besides over a long enough time, stats a very good pointer, in the absence of which it becomes a question of so and so is better because I said so, or because I have a better vocab therefore my favourites are better, stats reduce everyone to bare facts. I totally agree stats don't capture the edged fours, the dropped catches, the lucky wickets, but they are a consistant pointer. Humans by nature are biased, because of background, preference, upbringing, social class, etc, but stats, are brutally honest, that my friend is what makes me love them numbers!