[Match Thread] Eagles v Tuskers (Logan Cup)

[Jemisi]

Tuskers put a proper team on the park.

[Conant]

It’s incredible so far how our forumers have gone to offer platitudes on your selections hhm, but even you have to admit that you are very very wrong about a great number of these selections and ideas.

So far, and to my ultimate dismay, FlowerPower, Jemisi and others have typified the extra ordinary proof that if you pound a drum hard and long enough, it will finally give in. Now that the Minister of Propaganda has spoken, these are the kinds of teams we can expect from an earlier post I dug out.

1. Duffin 2. Vermeulen 3. Taylor 4. Matsikenyeri 5. Ewing 6. Taibu 7. Chigs 8.Hondo 9.Rainsford 10.Panyangara 11. Price

[
Between you and me(anyone can feel free to chip in with their A or B selection), assuming we kept to these XIs throughout, which of these two lineups would have attained better overall Test&ODI results by the end of the NZ return leg (probably Ireland is somewhere in there)?
A:Selector BRM:Vusi, Tino, Hami, Taylor(c), Craig, Taibu(wk), Elton, Price, Jarvis, Vitori, Mpofu


B:Selector me:Duffin, Hami, Vusi, Taylor, Matsi, Ewing(c), Taibu(wk), Elton, Price, Rainsford, Mpofu

I wish I had the time to go on cricinfo, and show you the folly of such selections, but me unlike , say FlowerPower or BRMTaylor is not sot so good at sifting through figures, relying instead on memory and instinct that has served me so well over the years.

A cursory look however at Terrence Duffin stats will reveal a player who averages 29 and 28 in First Class and List A games respectively - and you’re asking this man to do a national job.

The same unfortunately will apply to Tinotenda Mawoyo, who incidentally is the only thing I’m going to agree with you in this whole article.

Hold your horses FlowerPower . I acknowledge that I'm wrong! You have solidly proven that Tino is superior to Duffin and your arguments are sound.

Unfortunately, as with many guys here, we reason from different angles, whatever the merits of each one's arguments might be, and in the ZCF it's not a case of who's wrong or right, neither is it a refusal to concede or actually accept being proven otherwise, but a platform for Zim cricket fans to share what they have in common or not in common. Bottom line for me is, Duffin is a more accomplished and better opener, while Tino isn't!
NB:!

My memory of Duffin tells me of a very limited and one dimensional player who plays all his shots mainly to square leg, relying on a singular square cut which invariably picks a fielder, as the ground has been packed on the off side, because he possesses no other shot. Certainly if Tino Mawoyo is very limited, then Duffin is quite middling.

Mark Vermeulen, who is quoted as being quiet disparaging of the standard of our first class competitions even though his figures didn’t stand up to any particular notice at that time or now, has ever been the aggressive batsman touted out on media and fans to be. His finest hour, as I recall, a Test against West Indies about seven years ago was a very painful effort in which he withdrew into a shell and jogged through his singles. Now, is this the example that you are asking other youngsters to follow.

Matsikenyeri? At Four. Surely even despite his recent green form, which doesn’t run through a month, he deserves no such lofty status in the batting order of this team? And, as I recall, it is this experienced “old head", who has been in the Zimbabwe team since 2003, that was amongst the biggest letdown in this underperforming team, being out performed by youngsters and relative novices such as Sean Williams, Brandon Taylor and even Craig Ervine.

Those novices also came and pushed out very quickly Dion Ebrahim, whom made it into a squad of veterans, but fizzled out in a team of youngsters not much later afterwards.

If Gary Balance decided to play for Zim now, he would outperform half of our top six. Now this average, Williams, Taylor, and Ervine is very far from one in a million which you alluded to an earlier post, isn’t it. If the player is good enough, and shows quick adjustment in the very top form of international cricket, play him. They are not really as rare as you claim hhm. One Dwayne Bravo was the star of a West Indian team on tour to Australia back in 2006, and has not regressed since, even though he’s not really as lavishly talented as your Tendulkar or even Wasim Akram.

Dougie Hondo, Flower Power? I don’t think even hhm, has gone as far as to tout such a possibility.

Gavin Ewing? In a Test team, as more or less a specialist batsmen?

At least Flower Power argues his convictions with statistic and helpful diagrams, but you more than anybody would know that words do not merely translate to ideas hhm. Professor Jonathan Moyo and Nathaniel Manheru aka George Charamba are such examples, never mind Joseph Goebbels.

As such, on the contrary Tinashe Panyangara or Edward Rainsford are not primed in any way to perform any better currently that the incumbents. They are not doing it at domestic level so why should they do it at international level? Only Tino Mawoyo has defied such odds before and even then it remains to be seen how long he can sustain it. Indeed, it’s been the same performers that are still leading the bowling charts and they’ve been doing it for two seasons now, not one. Eddie Rainsford did it for one series, against Ireland.

How on earth are you asking Panyangara to do better than Keegan Meth when he will bowl at only slightly quicker without armory of out swingers mixed with in swingers? Experience will only count as a tiny percentage against talent and ability.

BRMTaylor mentioned in an earlier post that in a utopian world your ‘idealistic’ approach would have been very been just right. But even this world, you would admit hhm, is clouded by some extremely biased,unrelenting,extremely rigid and inflexible ideas, whatever current performance or form over a long run might indicate.

But as you say, no doubt time will prove you wrong.

[Jemisi]

Conant, don't worry, BRMT rescued me. I'm not going to buy that ladder. I've given my cards to my wife.

[hhm]

...typified the extra ordinary proof that if you pound a drum hard and long enough, it will finally give in. Now that the Minister of Propaganda has spoken, these are the kinds of teams we can expect from an earlier post I dug out.....

As one who always enjoys and relishes a fine read, I gladly salute this entirely well composed piece.

As expected, my greatest detractor could not bottle it up any longer. Welcome back!

Thankfully Conant, despite all admittedly logical and some baseless attempts to impress 'myths' on my person, the continuing developments, or lack thereof, seem to favour my philosophy as well as my preferred personnel. So I'm happy to say that I'm the one at ease with my reasoning. The gradual increase, as well as the ferocious nature of the arguments in my direction, is clear testament that my opposites are very much unsettled about their assertions. No doubt the persisting results of your folk, and lack of deserved opportunity towards my boys, certainly mean more calm on my part than you guys regarding this 'difference' of ours. I am therefore relieved of the need to further exert my energies on this one. The events progressively unfolding before us all shall do my bidding as far as proving the obvious is concerned. Evidently Jemisi promises to be your ally nonethless. Enjoy!

[ZIMDOGGY]

HHM i've got to hand it to you,

your a fascinating poster.

[eugene]

It’s incredible so far how our forumers have gone to offer platitudes on your selections hhm, but even you have to admit that you are very very wrong about a great number of these selections and ideas.

So far, and to my ultimate dismay, FlowerPower, Jemisi and others have typified the extra ordinary proof that if you pound a drum hard and long enough, it will finally give in. Now that the Minister of Propaganda has spoken, these are the kinds of teams we can expect from an earlier post I dug out.

1. Duffin 2. Vermeulen 3. Taylor 4. Matsikenyeri 5. Ewing 6. Taibu 7. Chigs 8.Hondo 9.Rainsford 10.Panyangara 11. Price

[
Between you and me(anyone can feel free to chip in with their A or B selection), assuming we kept to these XIs throughout, which of these two lineups would have attained better overall Test&ODI results by the end of the NZ return leg (probably Ireland is somewhere in there)?
A:Selector BRM:Vusi, Tino, Hami, Taylor(c), Craig, Taibu(wk), Elton, Price, Jarvis, Vitori, Mpofu


B:Selector me:Duffin, Hami, Vusi, Taylor, Matsi, Ewing(c), Taibu(wk), Elton, Price, Rainsford, Mpofu

I wish I had the time to go on cricinfo, and show you the folly of such selections, but me unlike , say FlowerPower or BRMTaylor is not sot so good at sifting through figures, relying instead on memory and instinct that has served me so well over the years.

A cursory look however at Terrence Duffin stats will reveal a player who averages 29 and 28 in First Class and List A games respectively - and you’re asking this man to do a national job.

The same unfortunately will apply to Tinotenda Mawoyo, who incidentally is the only thing I’m going to agree with you in this whole article.

Hold your horses FlowerPower . I acknowledge that I'm wrong! You have solidly proven that Tino is superior to Duffin and your arguments are sound.

Unfortunately, as with many guys here, we reason from different angles, whatever the merits of each one's arguments might be, and in the ZCF it's not a case of who's wrong or right, neither is it a refusal to concede or actually accept being proven otherwise, but a platform for Zim cricket fans to share what they have in common or not in common. Bottom line for me is, Duffin is a more accomplished and better opener, while Tino isn't!
NB:!

My memory of Duffin tells me of a very limited and one dimensional player who plays all his shots mainly to square leg, relying on a singular square cut which invariably picks a fielder, as the ground has been packed on the off side, because he possesses no other shot. Certainly if Tino Mawoyo is very limited, then Duffin is quite middling.

Mark Vermeulen, who is quoted as being quiet disparaging of the standard of our first class competitions even though his figures didn’t stand up to any particular notice at that time or now, has ever been the aggressive batsman touted out on media and fans to be. His finest hour, as I recall, a Test against West Indies about seven years ago was a very painful effort in which he withdrew into a shell and jogged through his singles. Now, is this the example that you are asking other youngsters to follow.

Matsikenyeri? At Four. Surely even despite his recent green form, which doesn’t run through a month, he deserves no such lofty status in the batting order of this team? And, as I recall, it is this experienced “old head", who has been in the Zimbabwe team since 2003, that was amongst the biggest letdown in this underperforming team, being out performed by youngsters and relative novices such as Sean Williams, Brandon Taylor and even Craig Ervine.

Those novices also came and pushed out very quickly Dion Ebrahim, whom made it into a squad of veterans, but fizzled out in a team of youngsters not much later afterwards.

If Gary Balance decided to play for Zim now, he would outperform half of our top six. Now this average, Williams, Taylor, and Ervine is very far from one in a million which you alluded to an earlier post, isn’t it. If the player is good enough, and shows quick adjustment in the very top form of international cricket, play him. They are not really as rare as you claim hhm. One Dwayne Bravo was the star of a West Indian team on tour to Australia back in 2006, and has not regressed since, even though he’s not really as lavishly talented as your Tendulkar or even Wasim Akram.

Dougie Hondo, Flower Power? I don’t think even hhm, has gone as far as to tout such a possibility.

Gavin Ewing? In a Test team, as more or less a specialist batsmen?

At least Flower Power argues his convictions with statistic and helpful diagrams, but you more than anybody would know that words do not merely translate to ideas hhm. Professor Jonathan Moyo and Nathaniel Manheru aka George Charamba are such examples, never mind Joseph Goebbels.

As such, on the contrary Tinashe Panyangara or Edward Rainsford are not primed in any way to perform any better currently that the incumbents. They are not doing it at domestic level so why should they do it at international level? Only Tino Mawoyo has defied such odds before and even then it remains to be seen how long he can sustain it. Indeed, it’s been the same performers that are still leading the bowling charts and they’ve been doing it for two seasons now, not one. Eddie Rainsford did it for one series, against Ireland.

How on earth are you asking Panyangara to do better than Keegan Meth when he will bowl at only slightly quicker without armory of out swingers mixed with in swingers? Experience will only count as a tiny percentage against talent and ability.

BRMTaylor mentioned in an earlier post that in a utopian world your ‘idealistic’ approach would have been very been just right. But even this world, you would admit hhm, is clouded by some extremely biased,unrelenting,extremely rigid and inflexible ideas, whatever current performance or form over a long run might indicate.

But as you say, no doubt time will prove you wrong.

This is the post of the year.

[eugene]

...typified the extra ordinary proof that if you pound a drum hard and long enough, it will finally give in. Now that the Minister of Propaganda has spoken, these are the kinds of teams we can expect from an earlier post I dug out.....

As one who always enjoys and relishes a fine read, I gladly salute this entirely well composed piece.

As expected, my greatest detractor could not bottle it up any longer. Welcome back!

Thankfully Conant, despite all admittedly logical and some baseless attempts to impress 'myths' on my person, the continuing developments, or lack thereof, seem to favour my philosophy as well as my preferred personnel. So I'm happy to say that I'm the one at ease with my reasoning. The gradual increase, as well as the ferocious nature of the arguments in my direction, is clear testament that my opposites are very much unsettled about their assertions. No doubt the persisting results of your folk, and lack of deserved opportunity towards my boys, certainly mean more calm on my part than you guys regarding this 'difference' of ours. I am therefore relieved of the need to further exert my energies on this one. The events progressively unfolding before us all shall do my bidding as far as proving the obvious is concerned. Evidently Jemisi promises to be your ally nonethless. Enjoy!

How are current events favouring your philosophy? This team is performing far better than any Zimbabwean side in years, including the ones with Matsi, Ebrahim, and Rainsford in them. Rainsford is struggling through domestic cricket, Duffin is performing averagely at best and Matsi is only now scoring runs after 10 years. And all of this in our weak domestic setup. The only point I agree with you is on Ewing. I think he deserves another chance, at least in thr A teams. Matsi had 8 years of chances, his time is done.

[CrimsonAvenger]

Thankfully Conant, despite all admittedly logical and some baseless attempts to impress 'myths' on my person, the continuing developments, or lack thereof, seem to favour my philosophy as well as my preferred personnel. So I'm happy to say that I'm the one at ease with my reasoning. The gradual increase, as well as the ferocious nature of the arguments in my direction, is clear testament that my opposites are very much unsettled about their assertions. No doubt the persisting results of your folk, and lack of deserved opportunity towards my boys, certainly mean more calm on my part than you guys regarding this 'difference' of ours. I am therefore relieved of the need to further exert my energies on this one. The events progressively unfolding before us all shall do my bidding as far as proving the obvious is concerned. Evidently Jemisi promises to be your ally nonethless. Enjoy!

The formality and the colonial era grip of the language that you bring to the discussions in an informal forum of this kind really makes me read through and enjoy your posts, irrespective of whether I agree with the views expressed or not.

[ZIMDOGGY]

On that note has anyone ever noticed how alot of forumers have straight out copied HHMs style of writing, right down to the bolded names and all that?

Well you know what they sy... Imitation is the most sincerest form of flattery.

Not the dogg though, dogg dont change for no man (except admin when I get warnings).

[FlowerPower]

It’s incredible so far how our forumers have gone to offer platitudes on your selections hhm, but even you have to admit that you are very very wrong about a great number of these selections and ideas.

So far, and to my ultimate dismay, FlowerPower, Jemisi and others have typified the extra ordinary proof that if you pound a drum hard and long enough, it will finally give in. Now that the Minister of Propaganda has spoken, these are the kinds of teams we can expect from an earlier post I dug out.

Do not be dismayed, I still have faith in the bulk of the current setup, although I have my reservations which at face value appear to align with hhm's philosophy..

Dougie Hondo, Flower Power? I don’t think even hhm, has gone as far as to tout such a possibility.

I'm not sure where that came from, but I assume it was to prop up my theory of sheilding the youngsters, see below...

At least Flower Power argues his convictions with statistic and helpful diagrams, but you more than anybody would know that words do not merely translate to ideas hhm. Professor Jonathan Moyo and Nathaniel Manheru aka George Charamba are such examples, never mind Joseph Goebbels.

Thanks Conant

Look I will push my side of things, I believe battingwise we are almost okay, if Ballance could be tipped over to batting for us, then we'd almost be the best we can be. I refuse to categorically banish any player (as my friend hhm tends to do), I believe in the Jaques Rudolph story, Michael Hussey dream run after years on the sideline, its not about age, but about BOTH experience and form, and if Ewing and Matsi are performing, then by all mean throw them in, currently, I'd be hard pressed to find a person they could dislodge, I mean even Mutizwa and Waller hhm talks of, aren't that much less experience than Gavin's 51 FC matches, 7 ODIs, 3 Tests, Waller is 36, 21, 1 and Mutizwa 48, 17, 0...hardly a gulf of experience, Matsi on the other hand is more experienced, but for me form was an issue, but is he more experienced than the guys in the top 5? NOPE.

Its the bowling I tend to warm up to hhm for, but for markedly different reasons, I unlike him rate the youngsters, but like him totally agree they are too green to be thrown into the deep end. They will sparkle here and there but largely will toil. I even gave an example of say our hottest prospects Jarvis, Vitorri, Meth/Ncube/Chatara/Querl/Chinouya, forming a pace attack, this would be too green, maybe ok vs Bangladesh who know only one way to play, (Power Play mode) but vs other nations this would not do (as we have seen vs Pakistan).

I recommend we shield them and let Heath groom them properly over 2/3 years and we will be the happiest lot, so I suggest, Mpofu, and one of Rainsford/Panyangara/Masakadza, and one of Jarvis/Vitorri/Meth/Ncube/Chatara/Querl/Chinouya on a rotational basis, and let them own the A team, and tour games, plenty of FC games, as we gradually introduce them onto the big stage.

Ultimately ideally if I ruled the world, I'd have:

1. Ballance (hit him over the head and take advantage of the ensuing amnesia) 2. Sibanda 3. Masakadza 4. Taylor 5. Waller/Mutizwa 6.Taibu 7.Chigumbura 8.Creamer 9.Jarvis 10.Rainsford 11.Mpofu [EDITTED]

In the wings:
Mawoyo for the opening berth,
Ervine (although ideally a form Ervine, also being a lefty, for me would displace one of Waller or Mutizwa), Ewing and Matsi in the wings for the niddle order berth, but the latter two would have a slimmer chance as I would prefer to grom the future and fuse them into the set up, to allow continuity, so Matsi and Ewing would be part of the setup if they are certain to disloge the incumbents, or as short term cover for injuries or loss of form of one of the big 5..
Masakadza jrn, Panyangara, all vying for the Rainsford role,
then Vitorri, Meth/Ncube/Chatara/Querl/Chinouya for the Jarvis role...with a view of evetually in 3/4/5 years taking over from Mpofu and Rainsford...