Future looks very bright!

[hhm]

foreignfield I won't go into another one of those which seek to 'morally' undermine my valid points. I've been through this with a few guys already and made it clear where I stand. In recent times, have you ever heard me speak of discarding Mpofu, Price, Elton, Meth, Rainsford, Duffin, Ewing, Panyangara, Vusi, Hami etc? When did I start talking of discarding the likes of Waller, Jarvis, Vitori, Ncube etc? Was it not before the 32 man squad, and have I changed my position even when they got wickets or runs against Aus, Ban, & NZ? The point is I remain consistent from that point of view! The oft used reference to Warne does not apply in this case. I'm not writing off the youngsters, I'm postponing them because I believe there are better players who can&will do the job. Afterall, it' snot like the Aussies themselves have learnt from their past as far as spinners are concerned post-Warne!

I think you get my point betterdays, whichever way you seek to swing it! The point WILL always be whenever it gotten hot our youngsters (& team) HAVEN'T cut it, and the WI are simply ahead of us whichever way you want to look at it!!! The difference between me and you is that I believe my team selection would have beaten Bangladesh and not lost to a weakened Pakistan or NZ; you find reason to praise them for 'commendable' results, I find reason to negatively criticise them for an abject display! As I've asked countless times before, if we won't beat those kinds of sides, who will we beat? So the way I see it, those players failed us and kept out guys who could've done better!

[betterdays]

I think you get my point betterdays, whichever way you seek to swing it!!

Of course I get your point - I just don't agree with how you're making it! and when using your judging criteria, it seems no matter which way I swing it - a SIX results

and the WI are simply ahead of us whichever way you want to look at it!!!

so far whichever we've looked at it - they're not (which returns me to agreeing with the product but not the process)

The difference between me and you is that I believe my team selection would have beaten Bangladesh and not lost to a weakened Pakistan or NZ;!

If that's what you think the difference between us is then it's clear the difference is actually where we both sitting in relation to reality ... now, I have given you the road map to find your way 'home' from the wilderness - reality and I await your arrival .

[hhm]

...the difference is actually where we both sitting in relation to reality.

I'll take that. Anyway, I guess we're both fine re Zim-WI so that's ok!

[betterdays]

...the difference is actually where we both sitting in relation to reality.

I'll take that. Anyway, I guess we're both fine re Zim-WI so that's ok!

We are in agreement - despite me arguing - but WI are my second team and I get the same feeling watching them as I do Zim.

[betterdays]

...apart from Sammy aren't they all lingering at an average of about 40 in Tests!!?

It's hard when you don't play Zim, Ban&NZ all the time! Fidel can tell you that!

I am a little bored (and timing my cigarettes in an attempt to give up) ... so i'm returning to this:

did you know that, ironically, his figures vs BD are almost exactly equal to his overall stats and his third worst ave after those vs SA and Eng. His ave vs zim is almost 30 - no letters home - higher than vs PK and NZ (so playing NZ has helped him a lot while playing BD hasn't helped at all).

J Taylor has better averages against India and Australia than vs Zim (he hasn't played BD)

On the other hand Shakib Al Hasan's batting average thrives against WI (and NZ) @over 54 and his bowling ave vs WI is 20 - all that after 4 Tests (he's only played Zim once so it's hard to judge but obviously his figures are MUCH better vs WI than vs ZIim ...so far). Of course those bowling figures lifts little (to 22) if you filter out the 2009 Tests vs a v v weakened WI team but his batting ave lifts too. In fact his performances vs the awful WI of 2009 and the 'promising' team of 2011 have almost nothing in it.

ok - with that Eagles wicket and enough time to make a coffee before my next cig. I'm off....

[hhm]

Well, did you know that Darren Sammy has more five-wicket innings than Andrew Flintoff, Colin Croft & Lasith Malinga; that in his first 12 test matches, he took more wickets than the great Malcolm Marshall did in over the same period of his career; even better, he took as many five-wicket hauls in his first 12 tests as Holding, Garner, Marshall, Ambrose and Walsh(combined) managed in their first 12 Tests?

That's enough to make anybody kick the habit!

[betterdays]

... I didn't know most of that but I know for sure Sammy is a good cricketer and far and away the most consistent WI bowler. and he can bat!! ss doesn't rate him but i certainly do, a Vaas type character who will give his all and deliver results more often than not.

I won't go heavily into what I think of Flintoff as I've not met many who share my views, but if I have to venture an opinion on him the best i can say is; when he was good he was very very good but when he was not he was absolutely average

[Jemisi]

Freddie was given a massive amount of grace. Far more than most players ever enjoy. He took a long time to produce anything of value.

[hhm]

Freddie was given a massive amount of grace. Far more than most players ever enjoy. He took a long time to produce anything of value.

Come on he was a 'potential' matchwinner! One of those players which each side needs who makes them feel they have a chance.......

Anyway, all the more reason why Elton's place across all 3 formats is safe then isn't it!

Everybody else does it - Eng(FF/Collingwood), Ind(Yuvi), WI(Sammy/Pollard), SA(Albie), SL(Matthews), Pak(Razzaq/malik), Aus(Hopes/Hastings)etc!

[Jemisi]

I wasn't saying that Freddie shouldn't have been given grace - just that he was, in fact, given an awful lot of it. And yes, Chigs is in that boat/ pedalo too.