[Match Thread] Zimbabwe v Bangladesh: 2nd Test

[Kriterion_BD]

It's an accurate statistical formula (every poker site can give accurate percentage predictions of winning hands before each stage is played) but I agree, stats are predictive and predictive science has serious limitations if not quite amounting to 'junk

I'm talking about cricket batting averages and stats in general, not poker.

only when context is involved ... when Monty [Cardiff] or Onions [Pretoria?] bat not out for 2 hours to get a draw (then they have contributed as much - if not contextually more given the not out - than their openers). This is, unfortunately cricket, not science.

Ahh, but we're not comparing Shingi to ZIM top order. We're comparing to the potential of the Bangladesh top order.

50 would have been great but the two + hours he managed in the second innings would've been even better in the first making the timing of the declaration tactically harder, one might suppose, which makes me reluctant to agree everything else would be the same

Faulty argument. That is assuming Shingi and ZIM were playing for a draw from the first innings. He had a strike rate of 125 indicating he was going to score the runs to close the first innings gap, not bat for a draw early on day 3.

No oversight, and extra few hours would have shed a whole new light on third innings ... I simply added a time pressure that would have left you in the same position "pressurewise". BD played good sensible cricket in the third innings because they had the time to.

Can all be easily negated by a run a ball hundred from Tamim if the right call was made. If ZIM tail enders are guaranteed to bat out another 3 hours, than Tamim can also be guaranteed to hit 100 off 120. He has past history against Anderson, Swann, Finn at Lords. Have the ZIM tail enders ever resisted that long? This the equivalent of going all in with pocket 2s, to borrow your analogy. You're not playing the odds well.

basically, in an infinite world (if it is indeed infinite) there are also infinite possibilities. I am beginning to sound like a sour loser (and to be honest I don't think about it at all until I come here ...It is simply fun 'cos you were being so graceless from a position of such obvious strength in the middle of the 4th day that...) and I'm not overjoyed we lost but nor am I over-embarrassed
BD simply outplayed Zim this game and that is really enough for me ... good on 'em

I think the calls evened themselves out. If I said BD got the bad end, I stand to be corrected. You guys copped more bad calls, but ours were HUGE (Tamim and Ashraful). The match was almost turned on its head and that was evident in the stuperous way that the ZIM fielders were celebrating when we were 18-3. Again using stats, a first Test like collapse from there would have left ZIM to chase 150 to win. They got 257.

You bet I'm graceless. When you lose, you can't make much noise. But you can from a winning position, its not right, but thats how the world works. No one listens to losers or the impoverished no matter how valid their points are. If you're a rich business man, you can buy the truth.

The series may be drawn, and Bangladesh will take that, but ZIM still outscored us by about 200 runs overall. And that is massive. We don't believe thats an accurate representation of the relative strenghts of the two sides, but we know that ultimately the onus is on us and us alone. Umpire decisions may be poor at times, accomodations may not be up to par, but unless you missing limbs, there is no excuse for not winning.

Good luck for the rest of the series!

[betterdays]

I'm talking about cricket batting averages and stats in general, not poker.
I know but poker is a perfect anoalogy for cricket and its statistics. As, like a batsman almost never hits his exact average the predictive percentages (100% correct if the game is played out in a sterile environment) almost never turn out like that ... some fold because they're out of position, small stacked....and the %s swing to someone else with a completely different hand


Ahh, but we're not comparing Shingi to ZIM top order. We're comparing to the potential of the Bangladesh top order.
The analogy remains .. Monty at least equals Aus top order and Onions at least equals SAs ... but really betters them because they're not out

Faulty argument. That is assuming Shingi and ZIM were playing for a draw from the first innings. He had a strike rate of 125 indicating he was going to score the runs to close the first innings gap, not bat for a draw early on day 3.
you are judging his intentions by looking at his SR after 4 balls (which included an ungainly 4) ... i'm afraid that's faulty...Zim talked only of "taking time out the game" at that point

Can all be easily negated by a run a ball hundred from Tamim if the right call was made. If ZIM tail enders are guaranteed to bat out another 3 hours, than Tamim can also be guaranteed to hit 100 off 120.
not exactly, Shingi has had 3 innings vs BD - and the two not cut prematurely short took up 3 hours between them. tamim has had more innings but has not passed 50 and Srtikes at 63odd He has past history against Anderson, Swann, Finn at Lords. he has history against us too, as I just pointed out Have the ZIM tail enders ever resisted that long? shingi? yes, see aboveThis the equivalent of going all in with pocket 2s, to borrow your analogy. You're not playing the odds well.as i have persistently said, it's not just odds, I can go in with pocket 2s because i have a larger stack, a better position and know my opponent has called on a J8 and i have him well covered if he moves all in on those cards again

I think the calls evened themselves out. If I said BD got the bad end,no, i understood we agreed the calls were about the same I stand to be corrected. You guys copped more bad calls, but ours were HUGE (Tamim and Ashraful)yeah, this is where we disagreed, they were when you were well, well ahead. Shingi's was our last chance of making a better game of it. The match was almost turned on its head and that was evident in the stuperous way that the ZIM fielders were celebrating when we were 18-3.a flutter of excitement but at 127/3 with imo your 2 best bats and your best young head still to some - and the history of totals chased in Harare these calls were of non-zero relevance Again using stats, a first Test like collapse from there would have left ZIM to chase 150 to win.the circumstances were simply so different, they were chasing the game in that test, here they were in complete control They got 257.

You bet I'm graceless. When you lose, you can't make much noise. ah, we differ again, gracelessness in defeat is my speciality - i deem it acceptable. gracelessness in victory never comes off well to my ear But you can from a winning position, its not right, but thats how the world works.not usually, you can crow/friendly gloating...expected tolerated and repeated everywhere. But to maon just seems crass No one listens to losers or the impoverished no matter how valid their points are.not entirely true, altruism is a natural, self preserving reaction. We help others becasue we instinctively know how fragile and interconnected the world really is and except for a few with a very low EQ we know it could easily happen to us If you're a rich business man, you can buy the truth.

The series may be drawn, and Bangladesh will take that, but ZIM still outscored us by about 200 runs overall. And that is massive. We don't believe thats an accurate representation of the relative strenghts of the two sides, but we know that ultimately the onus is on us and us alone. Umpire decisions may be poor at times, accomodations may not be up to par, but unless you missing limbs, there is no excuse for not winning.

Good luck for the rest of the series!and to BD too

[eugene]

Why are we still debating the umpires? The game is over, Bangladesh won, the series is drawn. Time to move on.

[betterdays]

Why are we still debating the umpires? The game is over, Bangladesh won, the series is drawn. Time to move on.

it's a personality glich... something got my goat (i'm seeing someone about that so not to worry )

[betterdays]

ok Kriterion_BD, i see you're back so I will put my therapy into practice and let you have the last word.

I do hope the series goes well for the two teams ... and especially hope the BD team gets their accommodation sorted.
cheers,

[Kriterion_BD]

1) ZIM talked about taking "time out of the game" at that point? I disagree pretty strongly. Look at their RR = 2.93. Not quick, but not overly slow. In the first Test their run rate was much slower, 2.6 or so. They scored just 217 on the first day. They were batting quite a bit more positively during the 2nd Test.

2) Sure Tamim and Ash got out when we were "well, well ahead" but we weren't well well ahead anymore when we were 18-3, and effectively 127-3. Look at our history of collapses (first Test, WI test from last year). In the first Test alone we lost 19 wickets for 179, for pete's sake! You don't call that a collapse? I mean did the guys know for a fact they would pull it off? How a cricket fan cannot understand that losing 2 top order wickets for 18 runs takes away from a position of strength to a weaker position is beyond me. 127-1 > 127-3 and always will regardlesss of context. We only had a lead of 109, not 300.

3) Shingi was your "last chance of making a better game of it". How much better? Would he break Lara's record? Would he face 200 balls? I don't think so. When ZIM was dismissed, there were still 240 scheduled overs left in the game. If Shingi had batted an extra 15 overs, that still leaves well over 200 overs with a lead of 50. Bat 80 overs # 3.3 an over and the target would be 314 to get from 120 overs. ZIM out for 257 ---> comfortable win by 60+ runs with a session to spare. Still 25 scheduled overs remain. Here's the thing, with Tamim at the crease...that RR could easily be 4 an over, putting the game way beyond saving.

4) To be honest, I am being graceless in defeat. A drawn series is a defeat for us. That may not reflect reality, but fans always have a inflated sense of their team's worth. I admit that. That being said, even if we had won 2-0, if the margin wasn't big enough and there were issues that aren't quite right, I'd still complain about it and I think I have that right. We should have won by over 200 runs, and possibly by a bigger margin than we lost the first Test had all the right umpiring decisions been made. But thats cricket. So I gripe and moan if I don't think we won handily enough. Thats just being a fan. We are uncompromising, hence the term "fanatic", which is what fan is short for.

This series has some positives for us. We had to battle complacency, had to battle being down first, and had to battle conditions both on field and off field. ZIM were missing some players and had some injury issues, but so did we. We picked up a little momentum heading into the rest of tour, and according to the Bengali dailies (I can't read Bengali so this based on other posters) Rahim has been annoyed with the ZC and wanted to win. Bear in mind, many of issues are perfectly within the rules of int'l cricket and are in fact, expected of a home side. But some other issues, are not. I believe and hope the boys intend to demolish the opposition as the series moves on to Bulawayo. They probably aren't aware that most ZIM fans probably don't care much about the ODI series, having drawn the Tests in emphatic fashion.

Appreciate your concern for our boys in ZIM. Please bear in mind that I don't harbor any resentment for that on the ZIM fans, ZCF posters, or the ZIM players...all of who are even bigger victims of ZC ineptitude than we have been. We only put up with the ZC's bullshit for 4 weeks every couple of years, you guys have to deal with them day in day out.

Although the BCB isn't always a whole lot better...just ask the boys if they got their BPL checks yet.

[Jemisi]

I think Cremer cost us more with his dropped catches than he did with the ball. He was a shocker - taking over Waller's mantle (Who has been better of late).

Guess he used up all his concentration batting.

[CrimsonAvenger]

Guess he used up all his concentration batting.

That too, in the first test. A very ordinary outing for Cremer this one. Leggies do thrive when the batsmen build enormous pressure with big scores. See the difference from the first to the second test. Warne and Kumble (to a lesser extent) had that luxury too, with their batting counterparts giving them a lot to play with.

But Price is the man for now. We need to get back to him at least for another year as Cremer works on his bowling speed and variations and confidence.

[brmtaylor.com admin]

Well done to Bangladesh. They outplayed Zimbabwe in the 2nd Test. The series deserved to have a 3rd match to be honest.

And surely now, after a drawn series where both teams have reason to be disappointed, we can come up with a perpetual Zimbabwe-Bangladesh trophy equivalent to The Ashes? The rivalry between these two teams is very high, it deserves to have a proper trophy.

[CrimsonAvenger]

The Price-Rafique Trophy?