How come Namibia doesn't have a quota but Zim/SA have?

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CholeZimbo
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Re: How come Namibia doesn't have a quota but Zim/SA have?

Post by CholeZimbo »

Zimco wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:47 am
CholeZimbo wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:33 am
My points.

1) On the Windies my point was to show that you do not need to be white to be a world class cricket team or batsmen also linked to the issue of white and black genetics in cricket.

2) You gents are now justifying the very low batting averages of a lot of white players based on strength of opposition. Fair point to a certain extent however not conclusive because the current best batsmen in the country have not faced such top opposition also. Based on that reasoning, Taylors average would be much lower than what it is now as he has not played any meaningful cricket against the top teams.

3) Since 2004, Zim's best batsmen have been BT, Hammy, Ervine, Taibu and Williams (We cannot keep on including batsmen that had potential and left, because those that have stayed, PJ and Burl have not been as good as even Taibu, so it is no guarantee they would be better.)

4) You will keep on trying to overlook my main point which is Zimbabwe Cricket does not have decent (because this has historically been a typical white zim batsmen. see point 2 if you insist on it being due to opposition) batsmen because of poor management and YES by a BLACK board. Taylor, Hammy, Taibu, Williams have/had talent and temperament to rise above this and are in the same league of batters.

5) Let me drive home my point. Taibu and Hammy prove the fact that zim can produce competitive black batsmen. However, we just have not seen a lot like these over the years not because the batting talent is not there amongst blacks but because of mismanagement, poor coaching right from age group cricket to have black batsmen get to Zim pre 2004 white standard batting (Which is overrated in this thread).
I don't think anyone was arguing that black batsmen can't be world class, there are plenty of examples eg Lara, chanderpaul , sobers, Gayle. Just that Zimbabwe isn't producing them or South Africa and that the quotas arent helping produce them directly but maybe the quotas are increasing player participation generally in South Africa which MAY lead to more good cricketers there. But in Zim a winning team and good career prospects/pay would increase participation way more than quotas.

Hamilton, taibu weren't world class and it is clear Taylor, wikliams are better than them but even they aren't world class the only world star batsmen that played for zim for a long enough period was Andy flower.

Maybe taibu would of been good, but as you said we can't speculate to much on what ifs. Taibu also initially developed under a better first class and cricket system playing with strong players so he had as much chance as any of being good if the player exodus hadn't happened.
I agree with you mostly. BT is better than Hammy and Taibu but not worlds apart. But BT is not better because he is white. I like that you mention that Taibu developed because the environment allowed him to, which has been one of my points. At the end of the day, all things equal, and the right things being done, Zim even SA can produce similarly competitive batsmen, black or white, which is my main point.

Zimco
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Re: How come Namibia doesn't have a quota but Zim/SA have?

Post by Zimco »

This is what produces good batsmen no matter what ethnicity from Brian Lara's Wikipedia.

Brian is one of eleven siblings. His father Bunty and one of his older sisters Agnes Cyrus enrolled him in the local Harvard Coaching Clinic at the age of six for weekly coaching sessions on Sundays. As a result, Lara had a very early education in correct batting technique. Lara's first school was St. Joseph's Roman Catholic primary. He then went to San Juan Secondary School, which is located on Moreau Road, Lower Santa Cruz. A year later, at fourteen years old, he moved on to Fatima College where he started his development as a promising young player under cricket coach Harry Ramdass. Aged 14, he amassed 745 runs in the schoolboys' league, with an average of 126.16 per innings, which earned him selection for the Trinidad national under-16 team. When he was 15 years old, he played in his first West Indian under-19 youth tournament and that same year, Lara represented West Indies in Under-19 cricket.

CholeZimbo
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Re: How come Namibia doesn't have a quota but Zim/SA have?

Post by CholeZimbo »

Zimco wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 9:05 am
This is what produces good batsmen no matter what ethnicity from Brian Lara's Wikipedia.

Brian is one of eleven siblings. His father Bunty and one of his older sisters Agnes Cyrus enrolled him in the local Harvard Coaching Clinic at the age of six for weekly coaching sessions on Sundays. As a result, Lara had a very early education in correct batting technique. Lara's first school was St. Joseph's Roman Catholic primary. He then went to San Juan Secondary School, which is located on Moreau Road, Lower Santa Cruz. A year later, at fourteen years old, he moved on to Fatima College where he started his development as a promising young player under cricket coach Harry Ramdass. Aged 14, he amassed 745 runs in the schoolboys' league, with an average of 126.16 per innings, which earned him selection for the Trinidad national under-16 team. When he was 15 years old, he played in his first West Indian under-19 youth tournament and that same year, Lara represented West Indies in Under-19 cricket.
I agree. And from what I know, Wesley Madhevere has an almost similar trajectory so far.

Zimco
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Re: How come Namibia doesn't have a quota but Zim/SA have?

Post by Zimco »

Yeah we agree on much CholeZimbo.

1) The exodus of white players from South Africa is damaging the domestic system in South Africa which will actually hamper black batsmen being elite. Not all the right things are being done in South africa.

2) Imagine what impact someone like Andy flower could have had on Zimbabwe team or Jacque Kallis in South Africa as a batting coach. The exodus of former player coaches is another serious impediment. Indian former players love to give back to India as do Ausi players love coaching Australia.

"I wasn’t allowed to be involved with South Africa because Cricket South Africa said there would be no more white consultants," Kallis told a group of journalists over a video call. "So, unfortunately, that fell away and this opportunity of helping England came about and I took it with both hands.

This is ridiculous and should make any cricket fan or person angry. Clear racism, surprised we haven't heard more about it. Imagine if it was the other way in the UK. We sure heard about Carberry claiming racism in the UK system but the equivalent in South Africa gets little airtime. This is the government interference the ICc should stamp out also employment law

Zimco
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Re: How come Namibia doesn't have a quota but Zim/SA have?

Post by Zimco »

ZIMDOGGY wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 6:56 am
I don’t think there is a serious keeper issue, I think there is a serious keeper BATSMAN issue perhaps. But that’s probably what you meant and is nitpicking, but 100% someone will chime in with ‘Feelwell Mabonbo from X club in Bulawayo is a great keeper and never gives away extras’ if I don’t point that out.

You could probably convince Adam Rouse to come back for a few years at that stage. Doesn’t look like he’s kicked on for England honours, and would be perfect for a band aid transactional gig (Solomon Mire says hi) if we can’t wrap up a longer term solution in Murray, Shades or who else.

It does look like Murray is ready and willing. It just seems it’s going to take some will and a few sit downs, negotiations to get him across the line.
He may want an instant contract as reported, but I’m sure he isn’t that inflexible.He’s probably just looking for some type of financial security or whatever.
None of this ‘he wants to play for the rockbird logo or not’ attitude. Doesn’t always pass the reality test.
People don't sit around for ever Zimdoggy.

CholeZimbo
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Re: How come Namibia doesn't have a quota but Zim/SA have?

Post by CholeZimbo »

Having those former players who were great would be massive! exactly what is needed. Wes and PJ are not going to be the next Lara under Matsikenyeri.

ZC just like the country, are in situations that they cannot dig themselves out of for a long long time.


On the side gents and of course knowing no one at ZC even cares.

A solution in the next 5-10 years to save this dying game in the country, would it not help for ZC to start identifying a few young talents at each age group and have academies like the one Taibu had a few years ago, Rising stars or something like that. Send these kids for some time in a year to play in top countries at each age group to gain experience and exposure to top pace and spin and also bowl to better batsmen. Graduates then split between this and First Class and Zim 'A'. This imo will be faster in exposing real talent to rigours of international cricket than having 100 lads playing domestic cricket and having to choose the best out of very midiocre cricketers.

ZIMDOGGY
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Re: How come Namibia doesn't have a quota but Zim/SA have?

Post by ZIMDOGGY »

CholeZimbo wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 9:35 am
Having those former players who were great would be massive! exactly what is needed. Wes and PJ are not going to be the next Lara under Matsikenyeri.

ZC just like the country, are in situations that they cannot dig themselves out of for a long long time.


On the side gents and of course knowing no one at ZC even cares.

A solution in the next 5-10 years to save this dying game in the country, would it not help for ZC to start identifying a few young talents at each age group and have academies like the one Taibu had a few years ago, Rising stars or something like that. Send these kids for some time in a year to play in top countries at each age group to gain experience and exposure to top pace and spin and also bowl to better batsmen. Graduates then split between this and First Class and Zim 'A'. This imo will be faster in exposing real talent to rigours of international cricket than having 100 lads playing domestic cricket and having to choose the best out of very midiocre cricketers.
This is just my opinion, and I copped some backlash fir saying it a few years back, but sending these teens on tours is kind of like a meat market for english county and club sides to cherry pick players to come there, and for the kids themselves to look for opportunities.

Since i said that, we lost Blessing to 'em, and there was a strong rumour Taibu was negotiating players out as an unofficial agent. So i think i was proven right.

it can still be done, but keep the tours brief, RS was a whole season or something and it gave the kids an opportunity to get comfortable and blend in a bit.
Cricinfo profile of the 'James Bond' of cricket:

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'The' Gus Mackay.

Hero.
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**
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Zimco
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Re: How come Namibia doesn't have a quota but Zim/SA have?

Post by Zimco »

ZIMDOGGY wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:05 am
CholeZimbo wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 9:35 am
Having those former players who were great would be massive! exactly what is needed. Wes and PJ are not going to be the next Lara under Matsikenyeri.

ZC just like the country, are in situations that they cannot dig themselves out of for a long long time.


On the side gents and of course knowing no one at ZC even cares.

A solution in the next 5-10 years to save this dying game in the country, would it not help for ZC to start identifying a few young talents at each age group and have academies like the one Taibu had a few years ago, Rising stars or something like that. Send these kids for some time in a year to play in top countries at each age group to gain experience and exposure to top pace and spin and also bowl to better batsmen. Graduates then split between this and First Class and Zim 'A'. This imo will be faster in exposing real talent to rigours of international cricket than having 100 lads playing domestic cricket and having to choose the best out of very midiocre cricketers.
This is just my opinion, and I copped some backlash fir saying it a few years back, but sending these teens on tours is kind of like a meat market for english county and club sides to cherry pick players to come there, and for the kids themselves to look for opportunities.

Since i said that, we lost Blessing to 'em, and there was a strong rumour Taibu was negotiating players out as an unofficial agent. So i think i was proven right.

it can still be done, but keep the tours brief, RS was a whole season or something and it gave the kids an opportunity to get comfortable and blend in a bit.
Yeah but blessing came back a better player. I have no problem players playing county, UK club for a few years.

The thing is with our budget of millions of US (what is it like 5 million?) for the top 11 players the money should be enough that they don't need to consider playing UK county or we can steal them back after some county before they qualify for UK. Eg 150,000 us per player. That's like 1.65 million, it still leaves a lot of the rest of the budget over for a small admin staff, coaching. ICC renovate our stadiums every few years anyway.

I would like to see a budget. Budgets should be available to the public as these teams are national goods. The problem is that UK county pays more than a national team. ZC have the budget to play national players more than county.


Zimbabwe receives $94 million in the ICC's current cycle from 2016-23, compared to India's $405 million and England's $139 million. “We know our place in world cricket and plan and budget around that,” Mukuhlani said.14 Feb 2021.

94 million usd for seven years is plenty for us.

secretzimbo
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Re: How come Namibia doesn't have a quota but Zim/SA have?

Post by secretzimbo »

CholeZimbo wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 9:35 am


Yeah but blessing came back a better player. I have no problem players playing county, UK club for a few years.
Blessing would still be there now, and long into the future, if the Kolpak system hadn't ended due to Brexit. He had no intention of coming back and playing for Zim otherwise. The end of Kolpak is a good thing. It makes it harder for black players in particular to leave to the UK - most don't have foreign citizenship and most won't be able to put in years of residence (like Muyeye has).

I would like to see a budget. Budgets should be available to the public as these teams are national goods. The problem is that UK county pays more than a national team. ZC have the budget to play national players more than county.
ZC paid BT & Jarvis a lot more than their county deals when they first came back. The money is, and always has been, there.

Where the fuck all of ZC's money gets siphoned off to, we'll never know exactly. But there are some people walking around our country with very very heavy pockets thats for sure.

CholeZimbo
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Re: How come Namibia doesn't have a quota but Zim/SA have?

Post by CholeZimbo »

Zimco wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:27 am
ZIMDOGGY wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:05 am
CholeZimbo wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 9:35 am
Having those former players who were great would be massive! exactly what is needed. Wes and PJ are not going to be the next Lara under Matsikenyeri.






it can still be done, but keep the tours brief, RS was a whole season or something and it gave the kids an opportunity to get comfortable and blend in a bit.
After closely monitoring talent from U13, Each year select 15 players to get scholarships to go and play cricket in India, Pak, Aus, SA, England at decent clubs/counties/franchises, Even their B teams. Ideally one kid from age 19 right up to 23 would have been sent to a team in each of these countries and played a minimum number of games under these various conditions. Maybe in between they come together and also play for Zim 'A'. The idea being having a 23 to 24 year old graduating ready to play for Zim at International level. If studying further is a concern, those who are really keen on it can be assisted to get into decent online universities etc. After 23 you are required to play for Zim if selected and also play domestic cricket.

This is a kind of scholarship every kid from U13 should be aspiring to attain.

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