Sibanda's NZ tour in doubt?

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Tom91
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Re: Sibanda's NZ tour in doubt?

Post by Tom91 »

According to cricinfo match coverage of the rhinos vs rocks game vusi is in the rhinos squad and is capatain. I dont no how accurate this is but it dont look good for vusi if he his playing tomorrow.

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Re: Sibanda's NZ tour in doubt?

Post by ZIMDOGGY »

I want to be in one of these tribes, where do I sign?
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foreignfield
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Re: Sibanda's NZ tour in doubt?

Post by foreignfield »

Tom91 wrote:According to cricinfo match coverage of the rhinos vs rocks game vusi is in the rhinos squad and is capatain. I dont no how accurate this is but it dont look good for vusi if he his playing tomorrow.
Vusi is in, as are all other available national team players, Taibu, Vitori, Waller, Cremer. So Sibanda plays his second match of the season for the Rhinos as far as I am aware - and mind, he missed the bulk of the domestic season due to national obligations - so where's the excuse now to exclude him. I hope it was a case of: "You go and play for the Rhinos tomorrow, and everyone can save their face ...

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Re: Sibanda's NZ tour in doubt?

Post by betterdays »

ZIMDOGGY wrote:I want to be in one of these tribes, where do I sign?
:) totemless hopeful!!
as another, I have to say what I have seen of this tribalism - it stinks as bad as any other form of prejudice...

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Re: Sibanda's NZ tour in doubt?

Post by ZIMDOGGY »

As someone who knows next to nothing about the Ndebele/Shona tribe situation .....and who's knowledge of black tribes doesn't extend past the American east coast v west coast rap battles of the '90s.... Can someone give me a brief rundown of the history, how to differentiate between a Shona name, and Ndebele name, and any other interesting little tidbits ?

So far I have gathered that you can tell their heritage by their name, speak with different accents, have a different old school language. Ndebeles are mainly I the south and shonas in the north, and Shona has a reputation (whether true or false) of pooing on the Ndebeles but get along relatively ok these days (kind of sounds like Irish/English feuds).




I'm genuinely curious to learn a bit from actual zimbos and not wikpedia.
Cricinfo profile of the 'James Bond' of cricket:

FULL NAME: Angus James Mackay
BORN: 13 June 1967, Harare
KNOWN AS: Gus Mackay

'The' Gus Mackay.

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Artist.
Player.

**
Q. VUSI SIBANDA, WHERE DO YOU HOP?

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FlowerPower
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Re: Sibanda's NZ tour in doubt?

Post by FlowerPower »

ZIMDOGGY wrote:As someone who knows next to nothing about the Ndebele/Shona tribe situation .....and who's knowledge of black tribes doesn't extend past the American east coast v west coast rap battles of the '90s.... Can someone give me a brief rundown of the history, how to differentiate between a Shona name, and Ndebele name, and any other interesting little tidbits ?

So far I have gathered that you can tell their heritage by their name, speak with different accents, have a different old school language. Ndebeles are mainly I the south and shonas in the north, and Shona has a reputation (whether true or false) of pooing on the Ndebeles but get along relatively ok these days (kind of sounds like Irish/English feuds).




I'm genuinely curious to learn a bit from actual zimbos and not wikpedia.
At the risk of being labeled dismissive or head in the sand idiot, I will propose....Just like any ism as with racism, tribalism is bad. And as with racism there are two sides to a story. Just as whites had a case to answer and blacks as well in the race debate, Shonas and Ndebeles are guilty at different times and at differing degrees. It's a messy affair and personally would rather you focused on more progressive issues such as Mpofu's slower ball, or Chigs attempt to discover his batting prowess. It (tribalism as with racism) is a debate with no winner, it is self propelling and gathers a lot of tension and further divides the parties involved and is not in the ethos of cricket (which is anti discrimination).

I feel you are best served by visiting other websites about it than here. I prefer discussing Mutizwa's ability or lack of it without referring or being guided by what tribe he is, rate Ncube on his performance just on the outcome on the field of play and nothing else. I would like to talk of Duffin and Ewing solely on the cricketing pedigree and not the paleness of their pigment. After all this is a cricket forum isnt ? Utopian? Maybe so, but that way we eliminate inherent predijucies and hopefully arrive at a merited non racist/tribalistic team, irrespective of weather it has 11 white Zimbabweans or Black or a mixture....or 11 Ndebeles or 11 Shonas...as longs as they are the BEST....
1. Mawoyo 2. Duffin 3. Sibanda 4. Taylor 5. Masakadza 6. Williams 7. Chakabva 8. Creamer 9. Jarvis 10. Rainsford 11. Mpofu

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Re: Sibanda's NZ tour in doubt?

Post by hhm »

Not to worry Zimdoggy, I'm not drunk with the same "diplomacy" that opportunistically permeates FP's mind, and considering that I'm neither Shona nor Ndebele, but blessed to have lived with them for a long time, it'll be my pleasure!

Basically, the Ndebeles are an offshoot of Shaka's Zulu kingdom in South Africa. They migrated to Zim when their king Mzilikazi in a secret mutiny, after one of his tribe's conquests, fled with the spoils meant for Shaka. Upon arriving they found a generally peaceful & progressive group of people, predominantly Shona. Tainted with their violent tendencies and fearless nature, attributes they developed while doing the bidding for the bloodthirsty Shaka, they resumed their barbaric nature on the locals who themselves, despite outnumbering the Ndebele multiple times, were unfortunately militarily weak and generally cowards. The Ndebele continued to raid Shona tribes, killing their males, taking their wealth and women. They also put in place a tribute arrangement which the Shona needed to honour or face the consequences.

Fast forward to Rhodes & Co. As you know despite it being a Shona land, the Anglo only needed to conquer the Ndebele in order to assume ownership of the territory, which they did. In between the likes of Nehanda & Kaguvi Shona spiritual-cum-military leaders also led revolts which were as expected inconsequential. All of which leads us to Smith & UDI, once again it was up to a Ndebele(Nkomo), to redeem what he had lost by toppling the Rhodies, and he started political parties and a military wing.

Naturally the Shona identified that since they make up the bulk of the Patriotic Forces they should be in charge and after a few in-house battles they came out on top (with Bob outsmarting his counterparts). Post liberation Zanu(Shona) beat Zapu(Ndebele-Shona), and the Shona legally assumed dominance. I believe the Ndebele being bitter, and encouraged by a few misguided Rhodies, were well on they way to starting a Civil War, which due to their greater strategic and military position stood a good chance of putting Zapu in power. The master tactician(Bob), in an ambush, unleashed his 5th brigade on the south of Zim, killing between 8,000-30,000 civilians, basically genocide, in what was called Gukurahundi.

Nkomo was humbled into a Unity Accord which assimilated Zapu into Zanu as a severely junior partner. The period that followed was one of Shona sidelining the Ndebele in all spheres of society - education, commerce, health, sports etc.

The way I see it, this is how it can be summarised - the Ndebele originally invaded Shona space, abused them, and ultimately surrended their land to the enemy. They then took the initiative to redeem the Shona land from the Rhodies, although I doubt it would've been to hand it over to them afterwards. Upon gaining power, the Shona would've done everything in their power to suppress the Ndebele anyway, which they sensed, but a civil war wouldn't have benefitted anyone (it was wrong, but I think people should look at that objectively). Generally the Shona got preference in anything, government contracts, trading licences, top jobs, political positions etc. In fact, a Ndebele Gibson Sibanda, together with Welshman Ncube, may have been the architects of the MDC, and Bulawayo (in Matabeleland, i.e. - Ndebele land) it's birth place(special mentioins to the Young Turks - Gwisai, late Jongwe, Biti, Chamisa, Majongwe etc), but a Shona puppet in Morgan had to be put in the forefront for sympathy votes(no Ndevere can ever lead us - "Shona"). All the more reason why the MDC has failed and will ultimately be written off as a failed project of the Blair administration instead!

Ndebeles think Shonas are unthankful for the primary role they played in the liberation, arrogant, greedy, and murdered thousands of our people for which they must pay. Shonas think Ndebeles are stupid, uneducated and inefficient, this is our land we can do what we want, stuff you! They hate it other :!: Of course the Shona believe Ndebele won=men are prettier than theirs so they tend to marry them instead. :lol:

In cricketing terms what does all of this mean - you can forget there ever being a Ndebele cricket captain, let alone president of ZC! If there are good Ndebele cricketers from Falcon, CBC, Plumtree, Mzilikazi, Emakhandeni, Mzingwane etc, enough will be done to ensure more Shona players make it to the junior national teams. Even if they have to put in more white players at the expense of a Ndebele they will do so.

Oh, Ndebele names won't have an 'R' in them and apart from the surname Ndlovu, no 'V' either. You'll find everything in a Shona surname, plus they tend to be long. If it sounds exotic it's Shona!
1Mawoyo 2Vusi 3Hami 4Taylor(c) 5Craig 6Matsi 7Taibu(wk) 8Elton 9Cremer 10Rainsford 11Mpofu 12Jarvis

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bayhaus
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Re: Sibanda's NZ tour in doubt?

Post by bayhaus »

Nice one hhm, I see no problem in explaining the history and giving some of the cricket comments and opinions here some context and perspective. i think its also inportant to state that the politicians have magnified this divide and sustauned for their own personal gain. one thing I certainly didnt appreciate was not being given the opportunity to do ndebele in school. that would have certainly broken down huge barriers, again political decision. in fact it should have been mandatory to study shona and ndebele.

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Re: Sibanda's NZ tour in doubt?

Post by ZIMDOGGY »

Wow hhm thats a good read... I can't help thinking of the parallel between that and the Muslim/Christian Serb Balkans conflict (Muslims being the Ndebeles and Serbs the Shona)

I take it that shorter names with a sharp African sound like mbangwa and gonje would b Ndebele but something like mutambanadzo would be Shona? The native zims.

Can you tell the difference between them as you walk down the street? Such as comparing a Dutchman to a Greek?

Or is it similar to how I see Arabs in Sydney - whereby they look the same in the face but u can instantly tell whether they are Christian or Muslim by their demeanor?

Shonas would be slightly shorter right?
Cricinfo profile of the 'James Bond' of cricket:

FULL NAME: Angus James Mackay
BORN: 13 June 1967, Harare
KNOWN AS: Gus Mackay

'The' Gus Mackay.

Hero.
Sportsman.
Artist.
Player.

**
Q. VUSI SIBANDA, WHERE DO YOU HOP?

A. UNDA DA ENTERTAINMENT CENTRE*

betterdays
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Re: Sibanda's NZ tour in doubt?

Post by betterdays »

I suppose the 'general' board in the index would be a more appropriate place for this thread but that's a necessarily dispassionate (certainly the historical element) potted history - and well-written too!
hhm wrote:it [Gukurahundi] was wrong, but I think people should look at that objectively!
an appeal to historians - rather than any generation of the peoples in question -I assume!


So, is Sibanda playing or not? what's the latest?

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