Ranking Zimbabwe's Match-Winners

[Kriterion_BD]

No, it would tell you who wins the big games and who prevents us losing to minnows.

Well I haven't run the numbers, but I'm fairly certain Hamilton wins games vs minnows with the bat. And I'd imagine the bowling is actually pretty evenly split. Cremer of course there with Chatara, but Jongwe, Williams, Raza, Madziva perhaps all feature up there probably.

[Kriterion_BD]

I long told you that there is a reason he didn't merely present the stats as they are.

But I don't try to hide my bias and provide a rationale behind any parameters I pick.

[pariah]

I long told you that there is a reason he didn't merely present the stats as they are.

But I don't try to hide my bias and provide a rationale behind any parameters I pick.

Go to any one of my stat links and try to debunk it to prove "bias". Open a new thread of you must. This is another one of the myths perpertuated on ZCF to avoid confronting facts. All stats I post have links. Those that don't have the same links in another post. Everyone always has the opportunity to click on that link and filter as they wish.

Recently jaybro tried to argue a stat avg or SR I think, but the same thing applies when say a BRM gets the highest avg based on one or two knocks - plus those stats were already there in another post. Similarly Jemisi questioned a Shingi stat which was essentially a copy & paste error, but his profile link is there. Likewise that flake guy questioned an obvious point about red-white ball when everyone knows Madziva has bever ever come near the Test side so it was about ODIs&T20s.

I'm loving the current Utseya bashing and the energy behind it because it proves that's the only thing that could be argued, and none of the other stats could. Even Kriterion had to create an entirely different criteria to counter, but even then he still couldn't. I never post statements of fact without backing them up. Several times I've posted stats which prove even Grant Flower was more potent than Ray, Utseya and Cremer. This alone would have made you think "he made a statement without stats, was that tongue-in-cheek"? Where's Traicos, Price earned Steve Waugh's respect and Utseya barely bowled Tests?

Anyway, fact is in big games Zim has won when all three played, Utseya has outbowled Price & Cremer, but no one here was able to disprove that when the point was made, but do so in a loose comment.

[Kriterion_BD]

But I don't try to hide my bias and provide a rationale behind any parameters I pick.

Go to any one of my stat links and try to debunk it to prove "bias". Open a new thread of you must. This is another one of the myths perpertuated on ZCF to avoid confronting facts. All stats I post have links. Those that don't have the same links in another post. Everyone always has the opportunity to click on that link and filter as they wish.

[/quote]

But a lot of times your facts are actually wrong. Such as when you told Jay that Mangongo would never force Chakabva to open the batting...but he did just that in Bangladesh.

Asides from that your stats are usually cherry picked. An example is your insistence that every black batsman be shielded down the order as if that is going to help. Batting averages are calculated in such a manner that it really doesn't matter what position you bat in if you average 25, you average 25.

Anyway, fact is in big games Zim has won when all three played, Utseya has outbowled Price & Cremer, but no one here was able to disprove that when the point was made, but do so in a loose comment.

But Uteseya was chucking. In fact, whereas guys like Narine and Ajmal were MASSIVE chuckers, they still managed to correct their actions. Utseya never did indicating he couldn't or he's lazy and couldn't be bothered. You can't get credit by breaking the rules.

[pariah]

But a lot of times your facts are actually wrong. Such as when you told Jay that Mangongo would never force Chakabva to open the batting...but he did just that in Bangladesh.

Asides from that your stats are usually cherry picked. An example is your insistence that every black batsman be shielded down the order as if that is going to help. Batting averages are calculated in such a manner that it really doesn't matter what position you bat in if you average 25, you average 25.

First of all, jaybro (and by extension you) was/are wrong. Chakabva opened when Mutumbami was picked to be the main keeper, and did keep. Secondly, Regis opened the batting in the 2nd innings as designated keeper once, not as a deliberate strategy or forced strategy form the outset. Again these are all factors which I have mentioneed prior so it wasn't a case of revealing something to me that I haven't previously spoken about. You ignore the context and my point - Mangongo would never have been so stupid as to use non-spinners and make a keeper open when someone expected to do that bats low and does nothing else. Stick to the context, otherwise theperson cherry-picking is you.

I have no problem with African batsmen opening the batting, and countless times I've made Mawoyo, Vusi, Hami and Matsi open in my XIs. Even Regis and Mutizwa. My point is and has always been - "Why aren't white batsmen being made to open even when clearly an African batsman has failed?" Even when someone like Taylor has done well and won matches opening he is still made to bat lower. Even Raza smashed Afghanistan when he opened, plus has several wonderful performances opening - why change him? Likewise there's no sense in Craig Ervine batting lower than 3 in ODI, or not opening in T20Is, but still that is not done. Burl came in and again we are still to see him open the batting but batted as low as 6.

This is not about individuals, but about the team. When things are not working, you adapt (not assume Chari will score more uns opening that Craig/Raza who are already in that XI prior to his selection). Especially when those batting 4-8 are constantly flopping against lowly Associates!

Guys can argue it whichever way they want but even Maruma, Mutumbami and Utseya have opened the batting. No one here in their right mind will argue that they are better openers than Taylor and Craig.

It's a pity when you read my arguments about opening you see it as a case of my "bias towards white players" when the overwhelming evidence points in a different direction. There are 3 formats, and Zimbabwe hasn't exactly selected that many batsmen since the rebelas left in 2003, so who exactly are opening the batting, and who are not allowed to bat in the middle order???

Fnally there's a big different between a mere statement and a statement of fact. You cannot argue against facts, that's why guys rarely do if you haven't noticed - you included. I don't put forward facts which are not married to evidence. If that's the case then why do you call it a fact?

[eugene]

Statistically Alistair Campbell had more success as a spinner in ODIs than Prosper Utseya, better average and strike rate.

Statistically my left testicle probably had a better chance of taking a wicket than Utseya.

Pariah of course believes we should only be guided by stats, so he is no doubt seeing the error of his ways in anointing Utseya our second-best spinner of all-time. You can basically find stats to back up any argument if you look hard enough.

[Kriterion_BD]

Fnally there's a big different between a mere statement and a statement of fact. You cannot argue against facts, that's why guys rarely do if you haven't noticed - you included. I don't put forward facts which are not married to evidence. If that's the case then why do you call it a fact?

How about the fact that Utseya has been chucking for a considerable period of time - if not his entire career. That ought to exclude him from any discussion just as the 1844 match between the USA and Canada is excluded from the Test record because its NOT A TEST match. Utseya was never "bowling" because bowling requires a degree of flexion/extension less than 15 degrees. Utseya was at 45 degrees. By definition he was not bowling, therefore he cannot be a bowler. If he isn't a bowler, he can't be the "2nd best" spinner produced by Zimbabwe.

How about the fact that Mohammad Ashraful is Bangladesh's "best match-winner" when statistically he has actually one of the very WORST rates of winning Bangladesh matches. Australia and South Africa, thats it in a career that spanned 12 years.

How about the fact that you want every white player to open the innings, when there are only 2 opening spots in any playing XI? How will all of Ervine, Williams, Cremer, Moor, and Burl fit into 2 opening slots? The black guys aren't going to magically average 50 because they all get to bat at #11.

[Jemisi]

I have checked the stats.

I have picked you up on many more things than a Shingi copy/paste error, Hhm.

[eugene]

Perhaps Jarvis should open, the batting and bowling.

[Kriterion_BD]

Perhaps Jarvis should open, the batting and bowling.

Sounds good to me. Now how do we get Vusi and Elton in the side so they can bat at 7/8 and don't have to face the new ball?

Btw, doesn't pariah know that new balls become available after 80 overs, so even hiding down the order isn't going to magically make Maruma average 50?