Ace All-Rounders Watch - Incoming Tours

[Kriterion_BD]

That is definitely a good way to assess them. But one can also look at those two components in isolation to not be extremely critical of an all-rounder who is not regularly contributing with both disciplines as long as he is one of the leading contributors to the team's cause in one of the disciplines. Something like an Angelo Mathews the batsman for example.

But when they do perform across disciplines across formats regularly, the impact is there in our face, like a Moeen Ali, or Hardik Pandya for India these days, so these stats must reflect that.

I don't consider Mathews to be an all-rounder. He is more of a batsman who bowls part time. In ODIs a tight spell has a lot of utility, so we could incorporate that. Mathews Test bowling average indicates he is nothing more than part timer.

[pariah]

That is definitely a good way to assess them. But one can also look at those two components in isolation to not be extremely critical of an all-rounder who is not regularly contributing with both disciplines as long as he is one of the leading contributors to the team's cause in one of the disciplines. Something like an Angelo Mathews the batsman for example.

But when they do perform across disciplines across formats regularly, the impact is there in our face, like a Moeen Ali, or Hardik Pandya for India these days, so these stats must reflect that.

I don't consider Mathews to be an all-rounder. He is more of a batsman who bowls part time. In ODIs a tight spell has a lot of utility, so we could incorporate that. Mathews Test bowling average indicates he is nothing more than part timer.

And what do Williams and Raza's averages indicate?

Matthews takes the new ball quite often across in Tests by the way.

[pariah]

Difference between batting and bowling averages would certainly be preferable.

I actually have an even better system. Rate the all-rounder's batting vs all other specialist batsmen. That tells how good he is as a specialist batter, even if he isn't one (eg Ashwin or Jadeja). Then rate the all-rounder's bowling vs all specialist bowlers, even if he isn't one (eg Sean Williams or Sikander Raza). The simply average the two together. Thus a Jacques Kallis would have a very high rating whereas a Daniel Vettori would have a significantly lower one (although still very high relative to other all-rounders).

I have a suggestion for you. Why don't you go to one of the SL tour threads and apply your method for the Test, and then the ODIs. We'll sample it there.

My logic is on average having Chisoro in place of Malcolm and making him bowl his full quota, while Williams bats strictly as a specialist batsman(and dropped if he fails) will produce better returns for Zimbabwe than what they are trying to do now. Zimbabwe went through a horrible period because the nett contribution for these players hurt the team badly. They were liabilities.

I don't think any other country would be foolish enough to let Kane Williamson, Root, Faf, Elgar and Smith(all superior spinners to Zim's so called ones) to bowl so much). Williams conceded 50 easy runs against a weak Dutch side that Chisoro wouldn't have conceded more than 20 runs to, while Malcolm true to his batting and bowling averages added absolutely no value to the match.

[CrimsonAvenger]

That is definitely a good way to assess them. But one can also look at those two components in isolation to not be extremely critical of an all-rounder who is not regularly contributing with both disciplines as long as he is one of the leading contributors to the team's cause in one of the disciplines. Something like an Angelo Mathews the batsman for example.

But when they do perform across disciplines across formats regularly, the impact is there in our face, like a Moeen Ali, or Hardik Pandya for India these days, so these stats must reflect that.

I don't consider Mathews to be an all-rounder. He is more of a batsman who bowls part time. In ODIs a tight spell has a lot of utility, so we could incorporate that. Mathews Test bowling average indicates he is nothing more than part timer.

That's what I meant there. He has become a part timer over time compared to the time he burst onto the scene, but how invaluable he is to his team is very clear when you look at his batting performances compared to his teammates'. This aspect comes out clearly in your approach.

[TapsC]

I think Hhm might be on to something there but in the end it really is a difficult call. Specialists in test matches are usually the way to go but our situation is different because we are a batsmen heavy team right now. In the end I guess if you use averages and strike rates you could assume that maybe Chisoro taking 4 wickets might have been more valuable than PJs runs in that Sri Lanka game. In the end it's all predictions and probabilities, things don't always work out that way during the game and there are always multiple ways of looking at stats..I wonder whether our national team stats man has a say on team selection. That would be interesting.

[jaybro]

The reason Zimbabwe play an extra batsman instead of a bowler and rely on Williams, Raza & Waller to bowl is because of two reasons

A. Zimbabwe like to chase so playing an extra batsman makes sense

B. Zimbabwe don't have anyone who averages over 40 and are very very susceptible to batting collapses and being bowled out for 50 ( like they did against Afghanistan).

In the Afghanistan series ( and also the home tri series )Zimbabwe struggled with the bat but bowled very well so they've decided to play an extra batsman instead of the bowler. Not matter which way you look at it Zimbabwe beat Sri Lanka in Sri Lanka using this game plan so it has som merit.

Of course different pitches and conditions may not suit the 8-3 lineup and the return of BT in the top order may lead to Zim reverting to a conventional 7-4 lineup.

[pariah]

A. Zimbabwe like to chase so playing an extra batsman makes sense

So they have superhuman powers now and can dictate the toss???

B. Zimbabwe don't have anyone who averages over 40 and are very very susceptible to batting collapses and being bowled out for 50 ( like they did against Afghanistan).

Don't drop Dav Whatmore's failings on the country's lap.

Not matter which way you look at it Zimbabwe beat Sri Lanka in Sri Lanka using this game plan so it has som merit

Zimbabwe beat SL because of Hami, Mire and Tari, plus SL's own uselessness coupled with potential match-fixing. Had Craig Ervine not scored that first innings in the Test, then it would have been over as a contest very early.

Like I said, once "independent" Kriterion is done with his SL statistical analysis, you can what the "allrounders" genuine nett contribution was on that tour.

[Conant]

I think Hhm might be on to something there but in the end it really is a difficult call. Specialists in test matches are usually the way to go but our situation is different because we are a batsmen heavy team right now. In the end I guess if you use averages and strike rates you could assume that maybe Chisoro taking 4 wickets might have been more valuable than PJs runs in that Sri Lanka game. In the end it's all predictions and probabilities, things don't always work out that way during the game and there are always multiple ways of looking at stats..I wonder whether our national team stats man has a say on team selection. That would be interesting.

Thew clueless Anesu Kafesu? The less said about that one the better.

[eugene]

A. Zimbabwe like to chase so playing an extra batsman makes sense

So they have superhuman powers now and can dictate the toss???

B. Zimbabwe don't have anyone who averages over 40 and are very very susceptible to batting collapses and being bowled out for 50 ( like they did against Afghanistan).

Don't drop Dav Whatmore's failings on the country's lap.

Not matter which way you look at it Zimbabwe beat Sri Lanka in Sri Lanka using this game plan so it has som merit

Zimbabwe beat SL because of Hami, Mire and Tari, plus SL's own uselessness coupled with potential match-fixing. Had Craig Ervine not scored that first innings in the Test, then it would have been over as a contest very early.

Like I said, once "independent" Kriterion is done with his SL statistical analysis, you can what the "allrounders" genuine nett contribution was on that tour.

You initially credit Hami, Mire, and Tari, and demote Ervine's contribution to last mention - no bias there.

[zimfan@india]

Nathan waller should be our no 8 batsman will be pandiya for zimbabwe