2nd Test | Zimbabwe V/s Pakistan | Harare

[Rajkumar Sharma]

Why ZC, Cricket South Africa, Namibia, Kenya is not having a combined discuussion for Africa Cup T20 Tournament. ICC has already given T20I status to 105 members. In Africa there is 13 active international teams playing the game. A six team T20I competation will be an exciting concept with Zim, SA, Kenya, Namibia and 2 from associates based on qualifying tournament, similar to Asia Cup T20 where Hong Kong, Nepal, UAE, Oman takes part along with India, Pakistan, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh & Afghanistan

[zimbos_05]

Zimbabwe: 115 Test matches, 13 wins.
Bangladesh: 124 Test matches, 14 wins.

India: First 115 Test matches, 14 wins.

So we do compare to India...

I feel like there's a few differences you have to take here. India got test status in 1914. It was still a colony then. They were playing much more advanced sides in Australia and England for the most part of the early years. In saying that, the standards and levels back then and when we became a test nation are very much not comparable. We would definitely have been at a higher standard when we started than when India started.

In saying that, a lot of our wins came in our early battles with Bangladesh. Now we struggle against Afghanistan. India and Bangladesh have significantly progressed, whereas we have significantly regressed. We were at a much more advanced stage in a shorter period than India were, but our regression has been so quick and so bad that we are further back than when we started.

A bit hard to compare that then when we need to make up for everything that was already done.

[Kriterion_BD]

An "outsiders" perspective for whatever its worth:

Zimbabwe sorely missed the senior guys who didn't play. Its probably something that will occur more and more frequently given they are all in their mid 30s now. Taylor, Ervine, Williams, and Raza will almost surely be retired by 2024. I suspect of the four, Taylor's game will deteriorate first and fastest, due to his lack of physical discipline. Time will tell.

I said I see merit in both sides of the secretzimbo vs zimbos_05 debate. Secret is right: this was a Zimbabwe A team with 5-6 first choice players missing. But zimbos also has a point: an A team is an indicator of bench strength and shows what the team might be like in 3 years when the Big 4 retire. Unless guys like Wesley or Shumba improve their games significantly, the future of Zimbabwe will be very similar to the past 15 years.

Its unreasonable to expect talented youngsters to perform consistently (Babar averaged 25 in his first 10 or so Tests, Kohli averaged in the 30s for his first 30 Tests or so). But a young player ought to play an "innings of significance" regardless of age or inexperience. Something that says they belong. Guys like Prince and Kasuza haven't done that and they've played a fair number of games against relatively weak opposition. I would say the jury is still out on Wesley, Shumba, and Kaia, but I can tell that Kaia is going to be another Kasuza.

The spin bowling is similarly barren. Raza, Williams, and Burl (haven't seen enough of him to be honest) are probably the best spinners in the land and they are all either part timers or batting all-rounders.

The seam bowling department is the strongest suit, IMO. Blessing is terrific. Has height, a bit of pace (hard to tell without any speed guns), keeps it tight, but most importantly bowls genuinely wicket taking deliveries. Could really model his game after Ambrose. I'm not sold on Ngarava...I'm not a fan of that action. I would rather see Carl Mumba in his place as he's a better bowler IMO. Nyauchi can do well only if the ball swings as he doesn't have the pace or venom otherwise. I really think Jarvis-Blessing-Mumba would be a very potent attack, if KJ can recover to come back. Regardless, I think Blessing and Mumba are a solid start to building a pace attack.

[secretzimbo]

Zimbabwe: 115 Test matches, 13 wins.
Bangladesh: 124 Test matches, 14 wins.

India: First 115 Test matches, 14 wins.

So we do compare to India...

I feel like there's a few differences you have to take here. India got test status in 1914. It was still a colony then. They were playing much more advanced sides in Australia and England for the most part of the early years. In saying that, the standards and levels back then and when we became a test nation are very much not comparable. We would definitely have been at a higher standard when we started than when India started.

In saying that, a lot of our wins came in our early battles with Bangladesh. Now we struggle against Afghanistan. India and Bangladesh have significantly progressed, whereas we have significantly regressed. We were at a much more advanced stage in a shorter period than India were, but our regression has been so quick and so bad that we are further back than when we started.

A bit hard to compare that then when we need to make up for everything that was already done.

I actually agree on a lot of stuff with you here. I hate the vast majority of things that have happened in Zim cricket since 2004 and have spent that entire time being very very critical of ZC, and the team itself at times. We have regressed ofcourse, and we have wasted so much, and we have been in some dark times and arguably still are.

But I think where our views differ is that right now I feel more positive about the future than I have for the last few years. I may be a fool for having faith or belief that anything will improve with ZC (And Zimbabwe as a country in general sadly) but there has been a lot of decent stuff done by the board this season by their usual standards. Small but positive steps in the right direction here on the ground. I have next to zero faith in most of the old guard in ZC but I think Hammy actually cares about the game and I think he is trying. We've not really had anyone doing that since Taibu/Streak left more than three years ago. And the financial situation is better now than it was then.

We've got a group of really experienced high quality guys who hopefully have another 2 years or so left. We have quite an exciting crop of fast bowlers, probably the best lot we've had for quite a while. And we have some exceptional young batting talent. The likes of Wes, Shumba, Marumani, Myers, Bawa are the best group of young black batsmen we've ever had and probably the best young batsmen full stop that we've had in the last 10 years or so.

The talent is there, 100%. For a country of our size and a cricket community of our size, with all our problems, financial issues, suspension, politics, lack of pathway etc - the fact we are producing talent like that despite everything is really encouraging. It's a miracle actually.

I'm fairly hopeful that ZC is slowly improving. It seems the looters might have finally figured out that being successful on the pitch probably gets them even more money lol. I have faith in Hammy. I know some of the selections have been ridiculous - Chamu etc - but I feel that we've seen small steps in the right direction over the past 6-7 months especially.

I think people - especially some of the newer posters on here - (not you zimbos_05 - you seem very reasoned and sensible) - focus way too much on the last match and never think back more than a week. We were the better team in the T20 series, and thats arguably our worst format. We had a bad match against Afghanistan but the first Test we were fantastic.

The big thing for me is coaching staff. We can't have this amazingly talented generation wasted. I've seen literally nothing from Rajput, Hondo & Matsi that justifies their continued employment. They've had three years now and it's time for a change.

So yeah, I fully agree we are at the bottom of the pack now and this Test series was utterly terrible, but I'm optimistic enough to see the positives and think we have a real chance to improve in the future.


But of course.....it's Zimbabwe, so who knows whats around the corner?

[sloandog]

Yep yep yep and yep.
The board over the past 17 years or so have shown a total disregard for Zimbabwean cricket. The only time we started to climb out of that political, racial pit was during the 2010/11 seasons, when the franchise system was fresh and money and sponsorship was pouring in. Flower even made a return. But since then it has been a very steady decline until (as you've said) this season. Hammy took over and I honestly can see an improvement, although I hate the fact the franchise players have mismatching kit!

I forgot all about Bawa. I've heard he's better than Wez and Myers so that too bodes well for the future.

I've still got a feeling not all is lost with Ryak Murray either.

[zimbos_05]

I actually agree on a lot of stuff with you here. I hate the vast majority of things that have happened in Zim cricket since 2004 and have spent that entire time being very very critical of ZC, and the team itself at times. We have regressed ofcourse, and we have wasted so much, and we have been in some dark times and arguably still are.

But I think where our views differ is that right now I feel more positive about the future than I have for the last few years. I may be a fool for having faith or belief that anything will improve with ZC (And Zimbabwe as a country in general sadly) but there has been a lot of decent stuff done by the board this season by their usual standards. Small but positive steps in the right direction here on the ground. I have next to zero faith in most of the old guard in ZC but I think Hammy actually cares about the game and I think he is trying. We've not really had anyone doing that since Taibu/Streak left more than three years ago. And the financial situation is better now than it was then.

We've got a group of really experienced high quality guys who hopefully have another 2 years or so left. We have quite an exciting crop of fast bowlers, probably the best lot we've had for quite a while. And we have some exceptional young batting talent. The likes of Wes, Shumba, Marumani, Myers, Bawa are the best group of young black batsmen we've ever had and probably the best young batsmen full stop that we've had in the last 10 years or so.

The talent is there, 100%. For a country of our size and a cricket community of our size, with all our problems, financial issues, suspension, politics, lack of pathway etc - the fact we are producing talent like that despite everything is really encouraging. It's a miracle actually.

I'm fairly hopeful that ZC is slowly improving. It seems the looters might have finally figured out that being successful on the pitch probably gets them even more money lol. I have faith in Hammy. I know some of the selections have been ridiculous - Chamu etc - but I feel that we've seen small steps in the right direction over the past 6-7 months especially.

I think people - especially some of the newer posters on here - (not you zimbos_05 - you seem very reasoned and sensible) - focus way too much on the last match and never think back more than a week. We were the better team in the T20 series, and thats arguably our worst format. We had a bad match against Afghanistan but the first Test we were fantastic.

The big thing for me is coaching staff. We can't have this amazingly talented generation wasted. I've seen literally nothing from Rajput, Hondo & Matsi that justifies their continued employment. They've had three years now and it's time for a change.

So yeah, I fully agree we are at the bottom of the pack now and this Test series was utterly terrible, but I'm optimistic enough to see the positives and think we have a real chance to improve in the future.


But of course.....it's Zimbabwe, so who knows whats around the corner?

I agree on a lot of your points, but I also see things from different perspectives (clearly) because of various factors. I was exposed to ZC pre 2004 and then post 2004, and have also been exposed to set ups such as the ones here in Australia, and to a degree the ones in UK.

Unfortunately I think we have a different opinion on the future. I totally agree that we seem to have a wealth of talent coming through. If Bawa and Myers are as good as the talk, then we definitely have a good base for a solid batting line up. The reality is though that their talent will not develop naturally to the level it needs to. Even players in their late 20s have to adjust and develop their game with the right coaching and guidance. So my fear is that we are not set up to give these guys the guidance and skills that they need.

I'm much more skeptical of Hammy. He had multiple opportunity to force change when he was a player, but he never did. I feel he was just comfortable because he knew that he would get a job if he towed the line. I also can't help but look past certain decisions such as Chamu as captain and Wellington in the squads as evidence of Hammys certain bias.

It's clear that nothing has improved with the current coaching set up, yet they will get away with it because the likes of Hondo and Matsi are ZC board mates. They wont really topple the boat in the way Taibu or Streak probably did to demand change and improvement.

The other problem we have is that our domestic leagues are so short that it does not take much to get in to the side, so this helps to keep certain players in the set up. We also constantly demand more matches or appeal that we need more matches. Let's not beat around the bush, we do get matches. Maybe not as many against the big nations, but we do get them and, particularly in tests of late, have been underperforming dismally. This is not ideal to the set up as huge losses can affect players and their ability to develop.

I want to remain optimistic about the future of ZC, but I am skeptical. I am happy to be proven wrong, but unfortunately at present I don't see anything that would suggest such.

[Rajkumar Sharma]

Zimbabwe: 115 Test matches, 13 wins.
Bangladesh: 124 Test matches, 14 wins.

India: First 115 Test matches, 14 wins.

So we do compare to India...

I feel like there's a few differences you have to take here. India got test status in 1914. It was still a colony then. They were playing much more advanced sides in Australia and England for the most part of the early years. In saying that, the standards and levels back then and when we became a test nation are very much not comparable. We would definitely have been at a higher standard when we started than when India started.

In saying that, a lot of our wins came in our early battles with Bangladesh. Now we struggle against Afghanistan. India and Bangladesh have significantly progressed, whereas we have significantly regressed. We were at a much more advanced stage in a shorter period than India were, but our regression has been so quick and so bad that we are further back than when we started.

A bit hard to compare that then when we need to make up for everything that was already done.

I actually agree on a lot of stuff with you here. I hate the vast majority of things that have happened in Zim cricket since 2004 and have spent that entire time being very very critical of ZC, and the team itself at times. We have regressed ofcourse, and we have wasted so much, and we have been in some dark times and arguably still are.

But I think where our views differ is that right now I feel more positive about the future than I have for the last few years. I may be a fool for having faith or belief that anything will improve with ZC (And Zimbabwe as a country in general sadly) but there has been a lot of decent stuff done by the board this season by their usual standards. Small but positive steps in the right direction here on the ground. I have next to zero faith in most of the old guard in ZC but I think Hammy actually cares about the game and I think he is trying. We've not really had anyone doing that since Taibu/Streak left more than three years ago. And the financial situation is better now than it was then.

We've got a group of really experienced high quality guys who hopefully have another 2 years or so left. We have quite an exciting crop of fast bowlers, probably the best lot we've had for quite a while. And we have some exceptional young batting talent. The likes of Wes, Shumba, Marumani, Myers, Bawa are the best group of young black batsmen we've ever had and probably the best young batsmen full stop that we've had in the last 10 years or so.

The talent is there, 100%. For a country of our size and a cricket community of our size, with all our problems, financial issues, suspension, politics, lack of pathway etc - the fact we are producing talent like that despite everything is really encouraging. It's a miracle actually.

I'm fairly hopeful that ZC is slowly improving. It seems the looters might have finally figured out that being successful on the pitch probably gets them even more money lol. I have faith in Hammy. I know some of the selections have been ridiculous - Chamu etc - but I feel that we've seen small steps in the right direction over the past 6-7 months especially.

I think people - especially some of the newer posters on here - (not you zimbos_05 - you seem very reasoned and sensible) - focus way too much on the last match and never think back more than a week. We were the better team in the T20 series, and thats arguably our worst format. We had a bad match against Afghanistan but the first Test we were fantastic.

The big thing for me is coaching staff. We can't have this amazingly talented generation wasted. I've seen literally nothing from Rajput, Hondo & Matsi that justifies their continued employment. They've had three years now and it's time for a change.

So yeah, I fully agree we are at the bottom of the pack now and this Test series was utterly terrible, but I'm optimistic enough to see the positives and think we have a real chance to improve in the future.


But of course.....it's Zimbabwe, so who knows whats around the corner?

Lalchand Rajput is famous because he is a good manager, administrator then coach. It was surprising when Afghans & Zim appointed him as coach. Zimbabwe should have believed on Dave Whatmore who is best in the world when it matters in working with weak cricket nations. He turned Sri Lanka into a strong cricket unit, Bangladesh development came under Whatmore and now he is turning the table for Nepal, in recently held Tri Nation T20 Series, the way Nepal played the game was with full positivity, a thrasing to Netherlands & Malayasia

[Rajkumar Sharma]

Zimbabwe: 115 Test matches, 13 wins.
Bangladesh: 124 Test matches, 14 wins.

India: First 115 Test matches, 14 wins.

So we do compare to India...

I feel like there's a few differences you have to take here. India got test status in 1914. It was still a colony then. They were playing much more advanced sides in Australia and England for the most part of the early years. In saying that, the standards and levels back then and when we became a test nation are very much not comparable. We would definitely have been at a higher standard when we started than when India started.

In saying that, a lot of our wins came in our early battles with Bangladesh. Now we struggle against Afghanistan. India and Bangladesh have significantly progressed, whereas we have significantly regressed. We were at a much more advanced stage in a shorter period than India were, but our regression has been so quick and so bad that we are further back than when we started.

A bit hard to compare that then when we need to make up for everything that was already done.

Till 1932 common people in india were not allowed to play the game under british rule, only subedars, nizams, landlords, nawabs, kings etc prestegious position holders were allowed to play cricket

[slcricfan1]

Zimbabwe: 115 Test matches, 13 wins.
Bangladesh: 124 Test matches, 14 wins.

India: First 115 Test matches, 14 wins.

So we do compare to India...

I feel like there's a few differences you have to take here. India got test status in 1914. It was still a colony then. They were playing much more advanced sides in Australia and England for the most part of the early years. In saying that, the standards and levels back then and when we became a test nation are very much not comparable. We would definitely have been at a higher standard when we started than when India started.

In saying that, a lot of our wins came in our early battles with Bangladesh. Now we struggle against Afghanistan. India and Bangladesh have significantly progressed, whereas we have significantly regressed. We were at a much more advanced stage in a shorter period than India were, but our regression has been so quick and so bad that we are further back than when we started.

A bit hard to compare that then when we need to make up for everything that was already done.

Till 1932 common people in india were not allowed to play the game under british rule, only subedars, nizams, landlords, nawabs, kings etc prestegious position holders were allowed to play cricket

Zimbabwe has had its problems too

[TapsC2]

The problem we are seeing here is that there is a whole 3 or 4 generations of u19s who struggled to produce any real world class talent. From 2010 to 2014. Those guys have really failed to step up. That is What we are seeing now. Things were very bad then in terms of ZC management and its there to see now. This is why people have more faith in Madhevere than Musakanda for example.

This is all going to change because the last batch of guys had the batsmen with potential and it just happens that the 2016 batch had some bowlers. Blessing didn't even make that squad which had Matigimu, Ngarava and Mashinge. Mix that with a couple of imports (which will happen) and you will find that we are no worse than where we are now. The chances of Dane, Welch, Muyeye and Byrom all playing for England along with all the Currans at the same time is almost zero. At least 3 of those guys (im suspecting Welch, Dane and Ben) will have to make an international career with us if they want one. Add Myers,Shumba, Bawa , Burl, Tari and Welsey to those 3 and we just at the same level at least in 5 years time